talk about our budding plans

[such_heights]

+ I am still looking for vids about robots! Thanks to everyone who's dropped links there so far, I'm still working my way through them all. Particularly if anyone has any recs for Transformers, The Matrix, or other robot films in downloadable format, that would be amazing. And, you know, if anyone feels moved to make a premiere for me, you should totally feel free to do that. *g*

+ I am also starting to think about halfamoon again! It is a two-week fannish celebration of female characters that starts February 1st. And on this occasion I am thinking about female characters who get character-bashed a lot. This was my preliminary list:

- Martha Jones, Doctor Who
- River Song, Doctor Who
- Gwen Cooper, Torchwood
- Guinevere, Merlin
- Jennifer Keller, SGA
- Anastasia 'Dee' Dualla, BSG
- Nyota Uhura, Star Trek Reboot
- Ginny Weasley, Harry Potter

... not entirely coincidentally, that's also a list of some of my favourite characters in each of those fandoms.

Obligatory disclaimer: obviously there is a difference between drinking the hateorade and just disliking a character! I personally totally heart all of those ladies, but even if I didn't I'd be pretty appalled at the treatment they have received in fandom from some quarters. *cough*TORCHWOOD*cough*

Who would you add? Obviously there is pretty much every woman who's ever been on Supernatural. With some of my shows, I'm not too familiar with the fandom so wouldn't know. Is there a lot of female character bashing in Firefly or A:TLA, for instance? (I HOPE NOT; THAT WOULD BE REALLY SAD.)

Comments

[pocky_slash]

I don't know if you're in House fandom, but it's on my mind since Becca and I are watching the latest season. But all the ladies on House, man. And I know Sam used to get shit in SG1 fandom. I haven't been over there since high school, so I don't know if it's changed. I know there are probably a gazillion others :\

[rhivolution]

Yeah, all the women on House get bashed big time. [sighs]

[such_heights]

Ugh, House fandom! That is sad! I have seen maybe three episodes of the show so I don't know too much about the women in question, but they seemed pretty great to me.

[sunnyrea.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, major Cuddy bashing!

[sol-se.livejournal.com]

Ditto on Sam. That's what I came here to say. I used to be a huge Jack/Daniel slasher and, wow, did I get tired of all the OOC Sam-bashing in fic.

[were_duck]

I don't know the fandom that well, but from what I have heard there's a lot of Katara-bashing in A:TLA fandom at large. Basically, any canon love interest for one or both of a popular slash pairing is likely to get bashed :/

[such_heights]

So true, and SO SAD. D:

[miarrow]

Most of the Katara bashing has to do with the fact that people think she's too mothering or a Mary Sue because she learned waterbending. I could talk for DAYS about how wrong and stupid I think that attitude is, especially since most of the boys do the same thing and even though Toph is awesome there is nothing wrong with having different types of female characters, including MOTHERS.

[netgirl_y2k]

Thank you for the reminder about halfamoon, every year I mean to write something for it, but I never remember it's happening in time.

Can't help you with girls who get bashed, although I am sure there are a depressing number, as many years ago I introduced a policy of "Run Away" at the first sign of character bashing. But, yeah, the two Gwens were the ones where it was so endemic that it was impossible to avoid all of it :-(

[such_heights]

Yay, I hope you feel inspired to write something! :D

And yes, I agree entirely with your run away policy, only it is so hard to avoid it all sometimes. *CLUTCHES THE GWENS*

[musesfool]

I've never seen female character bashing in Firefly (though I wouldn't be surprised if it existed, given the way Mal treats Inara), but I know Mai comes in for a lot of hate from Katara/Zuko shippers.

[such_heights]

UGH, why so predictable, all fandoms ever?

[lizbee]

I was about to say that as well. I've seen it mostly on DevArt, where there's a lot of talk about how she's too frigid, ugly, bitchy and dull for Zuko to love.

On the other hand, when I posted "Escapee" to a Zuko/Mai comm, I got a lot of comments complaining that Katara was in it too much, was too bitchy, etc. And I was like, "Man, I was trying to write her as the only person with any damn common sense."

[chaila]

From what I saw, the TSCC fandom at large was not so fond of Jesse. :( (Nor of Riley, though I think Jesse got more actual bashing rather than just dislike). Not so much now though, since the fandom is rather tiny but there's still the occasional line/remark that is ARGH.

[such_heights]

Nooo, that's really sad! Jesse! Riley! Oh well, at least now I have an excuse to include TSCC in this project I'm thinking about, so it's not all bad.

[chagrined]

Basically in every fandom I've ever been in I've seen every female character get bashed a lot, so this list could get rather long. :-/ In Avatar I've mostly seen Mai and Katara bashed.

[such_heights]

Oh god, I know, right? It's so dismal that I'm sitting here thinking 'well, this character gets the usual amount of shit but no more than that'. JEEZ.

[eruthros]

I saw a lot of female character bashing in A:TLA when I was reading all the things. Amazingly, Katara is often bashed when she's in the story's main het pairing -- Katara/Zuko, well, she'd better apologize to Zuko for being so mean and unaccepting; Katara/Aang, she'd better apologize for not taking him seriously or for leading him on or whatever. I think she's probably better treated by a lot of the slash writers, because at least they often just ignore her.

And Mai, of course, is an awful mean cold frigid vicious etcetcetc because she gets between Katara and Zuko. (Or Aang and Zuko.)

[such_heights]

UGH UGH UGH. I do now recall you telling me about this but I think I had blocked it from my mind.

Thought one: Katara/Mai for great justice! Thought two: at least I can stick A:TLA in this potential project now, which is fun.

[lizbee]

Going through FF.net, I noticed a really strange amount of fic where Zuko demonstrates his love for Katara by beating up Mai. I still can't get my head around that.

[fizzyblogic]

I am basically not in any fandoms properly now because everywhere I turn there is THIS FEMALE CHARACER SUCKS AND SHOULD FEEL BAD and it makes me back away very quickly and never go near that fandom again. Enjoy the source and rec'd fanworks without mysogyny, yes. Make my own fanworks because I love the source and have something to say, yes. Participate in the fandom itself, no. This has happened with every fandom. Ack.

Rose, Donna and Amy come in for a lot of hate in Doctor Who fandom, too; basically, if a companion is female, a vocal portion of fandom will hate her for no good reason. Also Hermione (I have seen the worst insults leveled against any fictional character thrown at her), Lily (she was once mean to Snape, you see, therefore she is evil), Cho (gah the shit Katie Leung got when she was cast D: ), others I have no doubt blocked from my memory. Harry Potter fandom is vicious in many parts.

There's a lot less of it in fandoms for sources that are primarily about women — Buffy and Babysitters Club is mostly my experience with these, although with Buffy most of the fic is m/m for some reason (WHY? WHY WHEN THERE ARE SO MANY AWESOME FEMSLASH PAIRINGS WOULD MOST OF THE FIC BE M/M? WHYYYYYYYY) so I count that against it, and there are always going to be a small number of fans who dislike characters for whichever personal reasons — but, like, Rosie Cotton is hated by certain parts of LotR fandom so I just give up on the whole venture and stick to my woman-friendly tiny corners of fandoms D:

Speaking of, halfamoon! Thank you for the reminder; it's been at the back of my mind to make a few things for it, but I forgot how soon it is. I should get on with those vids I'm planning to make!

[such_heights]

I HEAR YOU, ICK. It's so horrible and depressing and I hate running into it. And yet it's so hard to avoid!

It's ridiculous with Doctor Who, I was thinking about and picking the characters that get the most shit, because they pretty much all get hated on somewhere by someone. Though I don't think I've ever seen any Donna-bashing, actually! And I have no desire for that change. My feeling was that both Rose and Amy are popular characters who have some vocal haters, whereas it seems like the majority of fandom decided to totally reject Martha and to a lesser extent River. Neither are okay, really! D:

Ack, those are good points about Lily and Cho! Also I know Molly gets a really hard time. I didn't know Hermione got so much hate, though, that's really depressing - I was never in that corner of fandom, though in fairness in my end there was a lot of Tonks hate going around.

FANDOM. WHY YOU GOTTA BE THIS WAY.

But yay, halfamoon! I'll be so excited to see anything you come up with!

[eleanorjane]

Burn Notice: the amount of hate aimed at Fi is horrifying. Which is unusual, as the haters aren't usually trying to slash (or ship) Michael, the protagonist, with anyone else -- they just all hate Fi anyway.

[such_heights]

Huh, that is outside the usual parameters! And thus, somehow, even more dispiriting. D:

[xtricks]

Nurse Chapel from the original Star Trek series was often either used as a self-insert to sex up Spock or deeply disliked.

While the bashing on Torchwood (still clinging to that sinking ship!), makes me D:, I try and remember that's it's just a symptom of cultural bullshit and cling to the fantasy that someday the world will be like the 51st century and there will be no gender based bashing!

[such_heights]

Oh sure, this is all part of a larger problem! Which is part of the reason why I hate it so much, I guess, but like you I hope we eventually move onto examining characters, public figures etc without the stupid double standards.

[miarrow]

I should try this! I always see it pop over my flist when it's already almost done and am like "why did I miss this?"

I can't stand the bashing in Doctor Who. ALL THE COMPANIONS ARE FABULOUS. Especially since if you get to a side that actually likes Martha there's a lot of shit talked about Rose. It's become very trendy lately to hate Rose and I just adlfkjsadlfkj I love them both, god dammit. Even when Rose kept coming back. I LOVE THEM ALL. It makes me very frustrated most of the time.

[such_heights]

Yay! It's a great comm to hang out in and discuss characters even if you aren't feeling creative. (Though if you ARE I will be delighted! :D)

I LOVE ALL COMPANIONS FOREVER, yes, exactly.

[anoel]

I'd ask redina on LJ for Transformers vids, she's familiar with that fandom.

[such_heights]

Oh awesome, thanks!

[kiki_miserychic]

Wall-e
beccatoria has BSG and T:TSCC vids
Bionic Woman? = half robotish?
T:TSCC's Weaver and John Henry
BSG's Boomer
This is Matrix Life
Awakening - Matrix
And I have some BSG and T:TSCC vids as well.

[such_heights]

Brilliant, thanks a lot! And yeah, I have no doubt I'll be in touch soon about using one of your vids. Just need to decide which!

[sunnyrea.livejournal.com]

It really is amazing how badly fandom treats its female characters sometimes and how it often comes from the ladies in fandom. *growls*

[such_heights]

SIGH. D:

[megaptera]

Of course it comes from the ladies. The bashing comes from jealousy. If a woman is fantasizing about herself and her hero, or her two favourite heroes, female characters only get in the way.

Note that when male fans hate a female character, it's usually because she's not eye candy. I saw a lot of that going around about Katee Sackhoff, way back when reboot!BSG was first on the air. She wasn't absurdly busty, she wasn't girlish, her voice wasn't engineered to be sexy. Starbuck just wasn't created to provide fanservice and the boys resented that.

[lyras]

Molly Weasley is another female HP character who seems to attract hate from all directions.

I've seen a fair amount of hate directed at Laura from BSG, as well - generally I suspect from people who are uncomfortable with seeing a woman exercising her power.

Thanks for the reminder about Halfamoon! I've never managed to participate before, but will see if I can manage something this time.

[such_heights]

Yeah, Molly definitely falls into this category! And oh no, Laura hate, that makes me really sad. D:

[fly_to_dawn]

I would add Helen Cutter from Primeval - she's a villain, but she's also super-interesting and would fandom stop bashing her, please! There may also be hate of Nikki and/or Alisha in Misfits, but I'm too scared to peek in the fandom D:

AWESOME LADIES ARE AWESOME, END OF. So excited for halfamoon <3

[zahrawithaz.livejournal.com]

It strikes me how very many of the women on your list are black. I know "getting in the way" of a popular pairing is a great risk factor, but I do think racism has a lot to do with it, at least in the level of hatred spewed....Fandom tends to amplify many small signals that a character's basic humanity can be belittle, ignored, or downgraded until it reaches a truly dreadful level and becomes bashing.

[such_heights]

Seriously, that's a definite factor and it's really unpleasant.

[miss_haitch]

I've seen a lot of Cally bashing in BSG - people saying Tyrol doesn't deserve her, that she deserved to be killed, etc. Ugh.

[fallingtowers]

I am not even in the fandom for George R. R. Martin's epic fantasy series "A Song of Ice and Fire", which is mainly concentrated off LJ on several discussion boards. One reason why I avoid them is the fact that I have heard from second-hand / third-hand accounts how much vitriol against female characters from the books they are supposed to contain (mixed with general sexism / misogyny). From what I have heard, people bash a whole range of female characters for, well, existing. If you want to hear something from a more obscure fandom, I could give you a whole fucking list.

[megaptera]

Dawn from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.