such_heights | a little warning would be nice

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a little warning would be nice

Today, half of my flist is full of discussion on warnings and triggers. And some of the comments from the anti-warnings side are really making my head spin.

Fannish culture has a lot of rules and codes of conduct that develop in response to the needs of fans and are subsequently enforced - cutting picspams for dial-up users, marking content as 'not safe for work', warning for spoilers. And we all agree that those are good, considerate things to do, and when someone messes up you can usually guarantee that the first few comments they get are along the lines of 'dude, lj-cut, use it!' or 'a little warning for graphic content would have been appreciated, I'm checking my flist with the kids in the room!', etc. We consider all of that to be common courtesy, and most people abide by it.

So I'm trying to get my head around the idea that there's a big difference between saying 'hey, this uncut post is super spoilery for people who haven't seen last night's episode yet, you should cut it' and 'hey, this story might be very triggery for survivors of sexual violence, you should warn for that'. Adding the warnings is about the same amount of effort in both cases, and wow, the second kind of sounds like the one more worth avoiding.

For discussion of what, exactly, triggers are like, see the below, which outlines what exactly we're talking about when we're talking about triggers, for people like myself who are fortunate and don't have them.

impertinence: Sexual Assault, Triggering, and Warnings: An Essay "Warning: Very explicit discussion of sexual assault and the nature, anatomy, cause & effect of triggers. Is itself triggery."

Being triggered is not like being spoiled, or being embarrassed because you opened up adult fanart in a public place. It's also not like being squicked or being made uncomfortable by a theme. We all have things we don't like to read about, and that's what the back button's for if we discover the story is going to go along those lines. That's very different from being triggered in the way that

impertinence describes. People with triggers also aren't asking for everything ever that could possibly trigger a specific person to be marked; rather, the basic few, the stories that do feature sexual violence and consent issues. It's that baseline and that level of triggering that's under dispute here. Apparently, warning for noncon in order to ensure people who'll be triggered by that requires too much sacrifice of artistic integrity. Which, wait, what?

Unless I've missed something, headers are meant to do one thing: provide the reader with information. The vast majority of the time some of that header information does spoil elements of the story - the rating tells you whether there'll be sex scenes or not, the characters and pairings give you some details. Unless all you mark it as is 'title, teaser line, character a/character b, nc-17' and the story starts with said characters having sex, you'll probably have told your readers something about what's going to happen.

If a specific warning really is going to spoil your story (which is far from always the case), then you can create some sort of spoiler cut/whiteout for it, or you can have a blanket policy, clearly visible/linked to on every story you post that outlines what exactly you do and don't do with warnings. There are a lot of options here, and I am sure there is a solution for every writer -- also worth noting, where 'warning' may imply something negative about those who like to read stories with those themes, which I understand, 'contains' seems to work nicely.

Otherwise, if there's widespread disagreement about this, then I don't see how people with triggers can navigate fannish space very well, if at all -- all they'd be able to read would be stories that say 'warnings: none' on them (and when was the last time you saw that? the last time you put that in your header? I never do) or communities like some fic exchanges where stories won't be posted if they have content that isn't warned for. Or else, they'd have to research/check with a friend for every single story, no matter innocuous the title and summary might sound, however well you think you know the author, because if you don't know their warnings policy, it's your own fault if you get yourself triggered!

I really can't get my head around why anyone would want fandom to be like that. It's never going to be 100%, obviously, but I don't understand why it's a fannish faux pas to spoil somebody for an episode of a TV show, but it isn't one of similar universality to decide not to let potential readers know that your story could induce violent flashbacks in abuse survivors.

Posts by others that I've appreciated (again, content in the entries and their comments may be triggering):

again? we're having this debate again? by

thingswithwings
The warnings thing by

giandujakiss
This wasn't the post I intended to make today by

annaalmode

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Well, considering that those things are canonical for Tigh and Gaeta, I wouldn't warn for that specifically. But if Lee was the one nicking morphine, then yeah, I'd warn since it's not canon. And I think that's - for me anyway - how I gauge how I use specific 'grey area' warnings.

I mean, I would always warn for non-con, dub-con, violence, dark themes, or kinks like bestiality, watersports, self-harm, physical abuse/torture, etc. if I wrote them. And if you're writing a fic that takes place during the time when a character dies in canon, warning for character death is a bit of a moot point. But when it comes to grey-area things - and I consider non-canon character death a grey area - I would probably warn. Character death is one of those things that, even when it's not triggery for a person, it's still traumatic, you know? Especially in fanfic.

I mean, George RR Martin obviously didn't warn for character death (Ha!) but people approach fanfic and pro-fic differently, I think, because of the nature of it. Fanfic is supplemental to canon. I know for me, when I'm looking for Remus/Sirius fics to read, I really don't want to read about them dying in a non-canonical way. I also don't want to read fics where one of them rapes or tortures the other, or where Remus is a cutter. And if I read a fic that has those things in it, and I wasn't warned for dark or traumatic themes, I'm not going to read that author again. (Reading George RR Martin now, I know that there will be unexpected character deaths. But I know several people who stopped reading his books because of the character deaths.)

Depending on the story, I also warn for infidelity. And by that I mean, if I'm going to post a R/S fic to an R/S comm, and in the story Remus cheats on Sirius with Snape, and I don't list Remus/Snape in the pairings, I'm just going to end up pissing off readers. I don't think that in itself would be a triggering issue for most people, but besides pissing people off, I'm only going to hurt myself in the end. Unless my objective is to trick R/S shippers into reading Snupin, there's no reason for me not to mention it beforehand, you know? It would ruin my tricky plot point? Maybe, but it would alienate readers and friends, and that's more important to me than a potential spoiler.

That's an interesting point about original fic vs. the nature of fanfic. Because yeah, you can't list EVERYTHING on the back of a book. But then again, there are times I wish people had.

But there's another interesting point, with George R.R. Martin and his character deaths. There are things that are triggers, where I'm TOTALLY game for warning. Then there are things that people just don't like. I mean, I HATE infidelity. It's one of the biggest squicks I've got. ::looks at fic she's writing, hides fic:: Now, granted, I definitely appreciate it when a fic writer warns for it, because then I just won't read the fic. But it's often not warned for in original fic/movies, unless it's the main plot. And then I'm not angry, I just really hate it. But I don't resent the creator for not letting me know ahead of time, I just end up not liking the piece. And often times, I know other people who do. (Lost in Translation and Sideways are excellent examples- my husband loves both of them, I hate them on the infidelity count.)

I mean, it's not like infidelity is a "trigger" issue for me. It doesn't hurt to read it, at least, no more than it should. Will it ruin a piece for me? Yes. Will it ruin my day? No. Those types of issues are where I think it starts getting grayer, and that's where the whole reader responsibility aspect of the debate actually starts gaining some ground.

(Granted, the obvious answer in the case of fanfic is just to do the highlighted warnings. It's an ideal compromise. It's just more the philosophical aspect.)

And what about fandom-to-fandom? I mean, BSG is a DARK canon to start. (Also? I got apocofic on my cliche card. I am amused. EVERYTHING I write these days is apocalypse fic :) ) If you're going to write in BSG, I would think your readers would expect a certain level of darkness. I mean, in HP, if someone had suicidal thoughts, I'd be slapping a neon warning on it. In BSG, is there a character that didn't have suicidal thoughts in canon? I mean, come on- it got to the point of a cliche where if Character A pointed a gun at Character B, you could recite along with Character B "What are you waiting for? Just do it!" Not that I think that's healthy, mind :) I guess my point is just what would be expected and normal in one fandom could be warnable in another.

I also don't want to read fics where one of them rapes or tortures the other, or where Remus is a cutter.

Heh, see, in a way I think this is an interesting point, too. I mean, I'm right there with you, and I happily hit the back button on something like this. But it's not just the rape or torture thing, it's the I can never conceive of Sirius or Remus DOING that thing. And inevitably, for me, I become more offended by the bad characterization than I do by the actual act. (Or offended that the author thinks that the inclusion of rape or whatever automatically makes their fic edgy or heartbreaking.) And, sadly, fics generally do not come with the warning "Bad characterization, lack of punctuation, and insipid dialogue." :)

Like I said, I'm right there with you that the ideal compromise is the highlighted warnings, so I don't think we're really disagreeing. I'm just more interested in the theoretical aspects.

Well, there's no accounting for taste. :-P I'm sure some of my fics have had people thinking WTF? about certain things. (I also write teenage Sirius and James as foul-mouthed gits who swear a lot. Some people find that OOC because in canon nobody really swears, and Ron's are mild - Merlin's pants or whatnot. Whatever. I like them that way. :-P)

Yes, we do agree - I hope you didn't think I was being contrary. I was focusing on the grey areas you mentioned, and explaining where my own lines are. I think discussions like this are helpful, plus sometimes I like the navel gazing aspect. *g*

BSG is totally a dark canon. In fandoms like X Files, Prison Break, Hannibal/Silence of the Lambs, and similar, I would also expect disturbing content. It's part of the canon.

As for infidelity, whether or not I warn outright depends on the canon. In BSG Sam/Kara/Lee, and Zak/Kara/Lee - infidelity is canon. And if you're writing a Harry/Draco fic that takes place during the time period in canon where Harry is married to Ginny and Draco to Astoria, and you're following canon rather than writing an EWE AU, then infidelity is more than implied. I think it's when you're writing a shippy story, where the focus is on a particular pairing and you don't have canon or that implied situation, where it should either be warned for, or at least listed in the pairings.

It makes me think of my (our! Hee!) Teddy/Cedric fic. Originally I had Teddy returning during the second task, and Cedric was going to be conflicted between Cho and Teddy, among other things (and there would have been more with Remus and even Sirius. :-P) But Tarie listed infidelity as a squick, so I cut out that whole plotline (and saved a good 10K words! LOL). But if she hadn't listed it as a squick, and I had written it, I probably would have warned for mild infidelity just by choice, not because I felt obligated. I mean, I didn't consider Cedric 'cheating' on Roger to be infidelity. Nobody complained either, but if someone had asked, I would have added something to the header.

And that, too, I think is an important factor. For the most part, authors don't not warn out of malicious intent, and even in the instance with the BBB fic in question that started this round of discussion/wank, the author didn't realize her scene could be read as dub-con, and when people asked her to add the warning to her header, she did immediately. It wasn't a problem. But the wank last year with the Bandom fic with the frat pledging and the flat out rape scene, the author, when asked to put a warning, refused and said the fic was meant to be disturbing and warning would violate her artistic integrity or something to that effect.

The wanky part of this current 'wank' is that someone - after the author added the warning - decided to write a 3 comment-long diatribe in response to the fic about why warning was necessary, blah blah, which, considering it was after the fact, was condescending and wanky and would have been better served as a meta post in her own journal.

But I'm glad we're having the discussion. It's one of those topics that comes around cyclically, but this time people have added more to the discussion.

Oh, and here's a handy-dandy code for highlighted spoiler warnings that also has the code for the 'hover' text: http://amadi.dreamwidth.org/40143.html

I definitely don't think you're being contrary- just having an interesting conversation :)

I didn't know the history. I have a tendency to stay in my little corners in my little fandoms and happily weave my characters into their own complicated worlds, so when something like this goes on I'm only vaguely aware because my flist implodes :) But I totally agree that for the most part, people don't not warn to be mean.

I think I'm out of intelligent comments, though, so I'll go back to writing Dee/Gaeta/Hoshi/Narcho porn :)

Oh, yes, by the way- can someone please explain to me WTF is dub con? I mean, I get that it's dubious consent. But what, what, WHAT is that?

I've written rape. I've written fics where the sex was violent, but it was clear that it was consensual. I've written one fic where the act wasn't rape because the bottom was completely consenting, but the top considered it... something he regretted, I guess, because he knew that he wouldn't have stopped if the bottom had told him to. But I still can not figure out what the heck dubcon is. I mean, "do you want to have sex" has two answers... yes (consensual) or no (rape). I guess you could make a case for someone who's drunk or stoned and would legally be incapable of making a decision? Is that dubcon?

Help?

Dubious consent, to me is where there is some kind of coercion or manipulation involved. Like my Stan/Lucius fic, I consider the Stan/Lucius bit dub-con because Lucius completely manipulated Stan into it, and used him. Also, yes, under the influence of drugs or alcohol where they are less inhibited and would consent where they probably wouldn't when sober.

Also, in the case of repeated asking (wheedling) followed by lots of nos and then a reluctant, "yeah, whatever, all right", but it depends on the situation and comfort of the character, you know? Because it's not always a black and white yes or no. Do you want to have sex? Yes. Can I tie you up, blindfold you, and do kinky things to you during sex? Ummm...

Really, any situation where the character acquiesces yet it's clear that they're not exactly comfortable about it, and/or would choose not to be in that situation if it was possible; they gave in to peer pressure, they maybe want to sex but aren't all that keen on the flog in their partner's hand...

It would ruin my tricky plot point? Maybe, but it would alienate
readers and friends, and that's more important to me than a potential spoiler.

*nod nod* That's part of what's been baffling me about this whole thing. Like, I've seen the differing opinions on warnings and how they relate to mass media--people watch stuff all the time without knowing what might come up, versus movies and books do provide indications of content--and I think they're interesting arguments, but I also think they're totally not the point. Even if people walked into every movie or opened every book with no conception of what was waiting for them, is that really the standard we want to apply to fandom? We don't want to be better than that? I'm no raging anti-capitalist, or anything, but the best we can do for each other is to do as a bunch of huge corporations would? Really? Even when these people are your friends? Or friends of your friends? Or people who could really easily have been your friends, if you'd tumbled into the same fandoms at the same time?

Yes. Fandom is a community, and while not everyone who participates does so with the same intensity or places the same importance on it ("Fandom was my sanctuary when I was going through a rough time" vs. "Oh, please, it's just fandom!") I think that most of us - and a large majority at that - want it to be a safe, inclusive place. I mean, look at all of the discussion that came out of racefail or amazonfail, and other discussions we've had in fandom about making fandom (and beyond fandom - the publishing and bookselling industries) inclusive for POC, for LGBTQ people. And now some of these same people can turn around and tell survivors that they don't care? All of these groups overlap as well. It's like saying "my issue is important, and here's why you need to consider it, but your issue doesn't affect me personally so bugger off."

And even more, the remedy - adding something like "Read at your own risk; I don't warn" or "this story may contain issues that are triggery for some people" that literally takes seconds to type up - is something simple, easy, and non-intrusive. It just boggles that consideration is considered such a hassle.

Fandom is different from pro-fic/mass media. We approach the mediums differently, mentally/emotionally, and we have different expectations. You can't compare them equally because they're not starting out on equal footing. Not to mention that the aim of pro-fic/mass media is artistic expression and profit, where the aim of fandom, if it even has one, is more artistic expression with infinite diversity in infinite combinations, and community. (And fandom is the antithesis of capitalism! Hell, we're not even a democracy; we're more like a democratic socialist/communist community when you get down to it! :-P)

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a little warning would be nice

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