such_heights | a little warning would be nice

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a little warning would be nice

Today, half of my flist is full of discussion on warnings and triggers. And some of the comments from the anti-warnings side are really making my head spin.

Fannish culture has a lot of rules and codes of conduct that develop in response to the needs of fans and are subsequently enforced - cutting picspams for dial-up users, marking content as 'not safe for work', warning for spoilers. And we all agree that those are good, considerate things to do, and when someone messes up you can usually guarantee that the first few comments they get are along the lines of 'dude, lj-cut, use it!' or 'a little warning for graphic content would have been appreciated, I'm checking my flist with the kids in the room!', etc. We consider all of that to be common courtesy, and most people abide by it.

So I'm trying to get my head around the idea that there's a big difference between saying 'hey, this uncut post is super spoilery for people who haven't seen last night's episode yet, you should cut it' and 'hey, this story might be very triggery for survivors of sexual violence, you should warn for that'. Adding the warnings is about the same amount of effort in both cases, and wow, the second kind of sounds like the one more worth avoiding.

For discussion of what, exactly, triggers are like, see the below, which outlines what exactly we're talking about when we're talking about triggers, for people like myself who are fortunate and don't have them.

impertinence: Sexual Assault, Triggering, and Warnings: An Essay "Warning: Very explicit discussion of sexual assault and the nature, anatomy, cause & effect of triggers. Is itself triggery."

Being triggered is not like being spoiled, or being embarrassed because you opened up adult fanart in a public place. It's also not like being squicked or being made uncomfortable by a theme. We all have things we don't like to read about, and that's what the back button's for if we discover the story is going to go along those lines. That's very different from being triggered in the way that

impertinence describes. People with triggers also aren't asking for everything ever that could possibly trigger a specific person to be marked; rather, the basic few, the stories that do feature sexual violence and consent issues. It's that baseline and that level of triggering that's under dispute here. Apparently, warning for noncon in order to ensure people who'll be triggered by that requires too much sacrifice of artistic integrity. Which, wait, what?

Unless I've missed something, headers are meant to do one thing: provide the reader with information. The vast majority of the time some of that header information does spoil elements of the story - the rating tells you whether there'll be sex scenes or not, the characters and pairings give you some details. Unless all you mark it as is 'title, teaser line, character a/character b, nc-17' and the story starts with said characters having sex, you'll probably have told your readers something about what's going to happen.

If a specific warning really is going to spoil your story (which is far from always the case), then you can create some sort of spoiler cut/whiteout for it, or you can have a blanket policy, clearly visible/linked to on every story you post that outlines what exactly you do and don't do with warnings. There are a lot of options here, and I am sure there is a solution for every writer -- also worth noting, where 'warning' may imply something negative about those who like to read stories with those themes, which I understand, 'contains' seems to work nicely.

Otherwise, if there's widespread disagreement about this, then I don't see how people with triggers can navigate fannish space very well, if at all -- all they'd be able to read would be stories that say 'warnings: none' on them (and when was the last time you saw that? the last time you put that in your header? I never do) or communities like some fic exchanges where stories won't be posted if they have content that isn't warned for. Or else, they'd have to research/check with a friend for every single story, no matter innocuous the title and summary might sound, however well you think you know the author, because if you don't know their warnings policy, it's your own fault if you get yourself triggered!

I really can't get my head around why anyone would want fandom to be like that. It's never going to be 100%, obviously, but I don't understand why it's a fannish faux pas to spoil somebody for an episode of a TV show, but it isn't one of similar universality to decide not to let potential readers know that your story could induce violent flashbacks in abuse survivors.

Posts by others that I've appreciated (again, content in the entries and their comments may be triggering):

again? we're having this debate again? by

thingswithwings
The warnings thing by

giandujakiss
This wasn't the post I intended to make today by

annaalmode

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

This is the first I've seen of a current conversation about warnings, but over the years its come up again and again. And in the fandoms I read in, the warnings have gotten longer and more ridiculous as time has gone on. But consistently, the biggies (death of a recurring character, non-con, rape, kink) are warned for, which I am very thankful for. The Big D especially!

There is an exception though - The Pros fandom. When I first found the Circuit Archive, I got burned pretty bad on a death story. That's when I discovered that traditionally, the Pros fandom didn't include warnings in their stories. It is just how they worked, and I try to imagine how, and can only think that they just treated the zines like books you pick up in a bookstore. Books don't come with warnings, so you just have to read it to find out what happens. I don't know if that's the case that's being made, currently, but with Pros it was the only thing that made sense to me. The archive has a great write up on their FAQ page here, with a section that explains the system they've created to bridge the old and new factions of fandom. It's pretty interesting.

I don't understand why you wouldn't put a warning if your story contained things like non-con or sexual violence? I mean really, why wouldn't anyone?

Honestly, I think the issue is ... fandom's almost universal dislike of being told what to do and that feeling seems to come up more strongly when we (fandom, generic) are told that our not doing something will emotionally hurt someone. It's a defensive reaction, no one likes to be told that they might be unintentionally making someone else feel bad and we have all sorts of justifications of why we (again, generic) really arent (you're over reating, my way of doing x is important enough that your needs aren't worth meeting etc).

Because fandom is supposed to be a fun, easy going space, when we're told that our work can have hurtful impact, there's an instinctive rejection of it. And that makes people behave badly - in ways that they wouldn't in RL and, often, wouldn't actually behave in fandom, most of the time.

You can read my posts and comments, both here and on DW, but I'd like to elaborate.

AS a survivor of a whole variety of abuse and abandonment in my early teen years, and some abuse stemming back to early childhood, and don't even get me started on the sexual coercion and abuse, AND

as someone who has wrestled with the mental health fallout from these issues for decades,

I have a certain compassion about trauma.

AND.

If someone is experiencing 'violent flashbacks' when reading, I will tell you that life in general is not going well for them in a freaking huge way.

That merits way more gravitas than any discussion of warnings in fanfiction, which, I agree, are a nice thing to have.

So, two things:
One:

Let's start by having a discussion about what real and true support, other than fanfiction warnings, a community of friends needs to be offering someone who is experiencing violent flashbacks.

Because that is only the tip of the iceberg, and anyone who claims that their only issue is the flashback caused by fanfiction is lacking necessary insight or is being somewhat less than (understandably) transparent about their suffering.

Two:

I am darn uncomfortable with people equating lack of warnings with causing the original trauma. It may be impolite. It may be crass. It may be what the 'mean girls' do. But it is not rape, abuse, racism, ableism or antifeminism.

I prefer warnings, in general.

it really gets under my skin when people use that bullshit excuse of 'oh, but my artistic vision will be ruined'. how about the people whose entire day/week/month/whatever will be ruined by the painful and debilitating triggers certain fics contain? when did someone's vision become more important than, you know, actual people? ugh.

it's not that difficult to slap a 'warning: graphic depictions of noncon sex' or whatever it may be. hell, if that much 'ruins' someone's plot, i'd imagine it would at least be enough to say 'this fic contains potentially triggering subject matter' and leave it at that. at least people have the option of navigating away before it's too late. i'm very fortunate to be able to say i have not yet experienced anything that would make such warnings necessary for me. i mean, i simply don't care for rapefic but it's not triggering for me. how some people can say these warnings are not a necessity for some is beyond me.

your point about spoilers is so spot on. i've seen people using cuts for episodes/movies/books that are YEARS old, all in the name of not spoiling anyone. i'm as spoilerphobic as the next person, don't get me wrong, but i understand it won't send me spiraling into a depression or inundate me with horrific flashbacks if i know what's going to happen on s2e01 of Leverage before it airs.

the fact that we even need to have this discussion, and that far too many seem to not get what i just said, really makes me lose more faith in humanity.

thanks for this post and the links. oh, and for being awesome enough to get it. [not that i ever had a single doubt. ♥]

Yes. Just yes. I'm going to read the stuff you linked to now, but yes. I agree with this. I think the basic way of fandom to coexist peacefully is to make that tiny effort to understand what you can do in a public place (like a header) to stop people who don't want to be there straying into your journal. It's polite. And common sense.

Yes, I think noncon and dubcon warnings are important. They're not specific enough to act as "spoilers" for a story. And let's be honest - nearly everybody I know is reading spoilers for the SHOWS they watch.

I compare it to a rating on a film, and have in the past jumped over to themoviespoiler.com to see if something will be squicky before I drop cash on it. (I'm not triggered by any personal experiences at all, but can't stand torture or things like prison rape.)

My issues with warnings aren't the non-con, incest, etc. ones. They're the grayer areas.

Should you have to warn for character death? What about miscarriage? What about drug use? Giving a character cancer?

And there's a huge difference depending on how you write these things. If I mention Kingsley is dead in a Peter-centric fic, it's a huge difference from if he dies on screen. If I gloss over the physical details of Dee miscarrying and focus more on the fallout and how it relates to her marriage to Lee, does that still count? If James starts using drugs in an AU, but eventually kicks the habit and gets through it and it's only an 1/8th of the story, is that different from a story where Hoshi gives Felix a packet of morphine, basically enabling his addiction? If I give Sirius AIDS in an AU, or Hoshi curable cancer even though there's never been any indication of it, does warning for these plot twists take away from the fact they're plot twist? I mean, all these issues can be painful for people, depending on where they are in dealing with them. But where IS the line. There is one. I can think of things I will invariably warn for, no questions asked (if I even mention the concept of rape. I can think of things I won't warn for, no questions asked (very light bondage in a romance fic, for example). But somewhere in between.... hmmm.

That's more what I think is the important issue. Where's the line?

thanks for this, and for the links. &hearts

Thank you for this. It's not that I don't understand how subjective and individual some triggers can be; I'm still going to do what I can not to cause someone else pain.

Also, there seems to be a lot of conflating of rape-triggers with, oh let's say, adultery warnings, and just ...so not the same thing.

your point about spoilers is so spot on. i've seen people using cuts for episodes/movies/books that are YEARS old, all in the name of not spoiling anyone.

For mother fucking REAL (especially in DW fandom, jesus christ), and yet people are angsting about slapping on a fucking warning of graphic depictions?

Some of these examples seem to be issues you might mention in your summary, no? I mean, if you're writing a story about the aftermath of Dee's miscarriage, then your summary would probably indicate that.

I do warn for drug use myself, and it's easy to put something like 'drug/alcohol abuse', 'hard drug use' or 'mild drug references/use (i.e. pot)' in the warnings. (There's a difference, I think, between social use - i.e. sneaking out to a bar and drinking, or smoking pot and getting the munchies/getting frisky, and writing a story where X character is an alcoholic or drug addict. I wouldn't really warn for the former, but I would for the latter.)

As for the AIDS or cancer stories, some mild warning of 'angst or somber themes' maybe? Even H/C if it's that kind of story. If it's someone like Roslyn who has cancer canonically, then that's less of an issue. Anyone reading would already know that. And since she dies in canon - same with Sirius or Remus or James or Lily or Felix - warning for character death in those instances isn't the same as writing a story where you kill a main character who doesn't die in canon.

It is hard to draw the line, but something like miscarriage can be very triggering for someone who has suffered one (or multiples) or even someone who is currently pregnant or trying to conceive, you know? I tend to prefer to err on the side of caution, and if I'm concerned about spoilers, I'll put the warning in the "highlight to reveal" format.

I read that post - and others - last night, and I was gobsmacked by the "ZOMG! U R OPPRESSING ME!" attitude of the anti-warning crowd. One commenter who was all adamant about "I am not intentionally hurting anyone by not warning and I resent you saying I am!" just completely missed the point. Intentions have nothing to do with it. If I rear-end someone in a car, I certainly didn't do it intentionally, but I still might have hurt the driver of the car I hit.

And for those who say, "I will not conform! You can't make me! I can do what I want in my own journal!" Well, yes, we can't make you, and you can do what you want. But most human beings try not to be assholes (if they can help it), and it's a simple courtesy. If you insist on acting like a diva, where your artistic integrity and stubborn willfulness is more important than common courtesy to your fellow fandomers, well, you reap what you sow. Nobody is asking for an in-depth description - a simple "some themes in this story might be triggering" would suffice.

Yeah, the miscarriage one is the one I always worry about. I've warned for it once (not the Dee fic) and skipped the warning for it in the Dee fic. (She was talking about getting pregnant as early as chapter 1 or 2, and didn't until chapter 7. Since this follows canon, I would hope people could figure out long before this either she wasn't going to get pregnant, or that if she did, she'd be losing the baby. And the fic was dealing more with Why She and Hoshi Hated Each Other than Dee having a miscarriage.) But yeah, ESPECIALLY given that fandom is largely female, the whole miscarriage thing is one of those... man, I'd hate to hurt someone.

I was thinking "angst" as a warning/genre. Usually if I see that, I know that I'll be more inclined to expect the writer to do something like that. I think my own personal favorite that I've used is "I'm mean."

Heh. So, for alcohol/drug abuse: would you warn for alcoholism in a Tigh fic or morphine use in a Gaeta fic? :)

I also find that with "character death", it really depends on how many characters you have going. If you're writing a fic using the whole cast, "character death" doesn't necessarily spoil anything. If you're writing a fic with just Harry and Hermione, "character death" probably does.

Edited 2009-06-23 19:08 (UTC)

Yes, people should warn for that. Thought that was common courtesy. FFS, they warn for that in sex story depositories just for the cold hard (nach) ease of being able to categorize. But not because I get triggered, simply and selfishly because I usually want to stay away from stuff like incest and ooc slash (thus me never entering into the Supernatural fandom >>).

My big problem with getting into fandom is that people write terrible summaries and I just get frustrated having to wade through fics whose summaries are "wrote this this morning" or are, conversely, three paragraphs long. Maybe we could somehow get a Dewey Decimal system going here.

I also agree with

villeinage's comments in that if someone is triggering that badly? There is more going on than a fic in their life to make it so. When I read a fic that hits too close to home in that regards to the point where I am uncomfortable and feel anxious, I remove myself from the situation and hit that glorious back button.

I have no idea what that means within the context of my opinion, just that people, in general, should make sure others have the support groups they need because individuals (especially those of us who know we have extra precautions) need to be able to deal with the occasional person who is willfully ignorant or just doesn't intuitively know everything about the code of conduct on the internet.

Well, considering that those things are canonical for Tigh and Gaeta, I wouldn't warn for that specifically. But if Lee was the one nicking morphine, then yeah, I'd warn since it's not canon. And I think that's - for me anyway - how I gauge how I use specific 'grey area' warnings.

I mean, I would always warn for non-con, dub-con, violence, dark themes, or kinks like bestiality, watersports, self-harm, physical abuse/torture, etc. if I wrote them. And if you're writing a fic that takes place during the time when a character dies in canon, warning for character death is a bit of a moot point. But when it comes to grey-area things - and I consider non-canon character death a grey area - I would probably warn. Character death is one of those things that, even when it's not triggery for a person, it's still traumatic, you know? Especially in fanfic.

I mean, George RR Martin obviously didn't warn for character death (Ha!) but people approach fanfic and pro-fic differently, I think, because of the nature of it. Fanfic is supplemental to canon. I know for me, when I'm looking for Remus/Sirius fics to read, I really don't want to read about them dying in a non-canonical way. I also don't want to read fics where one of them rapes or tortures the other, or where Remus is a cutter. And if I read a fic that has those things in it, and I wasn't warned for dark or traumatic themes, I'm not going to read that author again. (Reading George RR Martin now, I know that there will be unexpected character deaths. But I know several people who stopped reading his books because of the character deaths.)

Depending on the story, I also warn for infidelity. And by that I mean, if I'm going to post a R/S fic to an R/S comm, and in the story Remus cheats on Sirius with Snape, and I don't list Remus/Snape in the pairings, I'm just going to end up pissing off readers. I don't think that in itself would be a triggering issue for most people, but besides pissing people off, I'm only going to hurt myself in the end. Unless my objective is to trick R/S shippers into reading Snupin, there's no reason for me not to mention it beforehand, you know? It would ruin my tricky plot point? Maybe, but it would alienate readers and friends, and that's more important to me than a potential spoiler.

You know, I don't know how anyone could justify not using warnings.

(Anecdote: A long time ago, I made a post in my journal titled: My History of Abuse. It was not terribly detailed, but it was exactly what it advertised. And the first time someone asked me to cut for triggers, I was embarrassed that I hadn't thought to do that first.)

If people want to keep readers, they have to treat them right. Part of that is acknowledging that there are things people can't be asked to deal with if they aren't able. It's that simple, really.

I just had to comment here because, dude- GIP :)

It just fit.

In so much agreement here.

I've been reading a lot of these posts in horrified bewilderment today as well. Though some of the horror is definitely that I personally not thought of this enough in the past when putting up headers on my fics - I'm planning to go through tonight and add some warnings where I should have before.

The issue is making me wonder, especially as there are some people who seem unlikely to change their minds - whether there should be a place, probably a community, that people could make a note of stories that contain triggers without warnings - or ask whether stories contain triggers. In the same way that people can usually go and check whether movies or tv shows or books contain things they don't wish to experience. I'm just not sure how to make it work.

That's an interesting point about original fic vs. the nature of fanfic. Because yeah, you can't list EVERYTHING on the back of a book. But then again, there are times I wish people had.

But there's another interesting point, with George R.R. Martin and his character deaths. There are things that are triggers, where I'm TOTALLY game for warning. Then there are things that people just don't like. I mean, I HATE infidelity. It's one of the biggest squicks I've got. ::looks at fic she's writing, hides fic:: Now, granted, I definitely appreciate it when a fic writer warns for it, because then I just won't read the fic. But it's often not warned for in original fic/movies, unless it's the main plot. And then I'm not angry, I just really hate it. But I don't resent the creator for not letting me know ahead of time, I just end up not liking the piece. And often times, I know other people who do. (Lost in Translation and Sideways are excellent examples- my husband loves both of them, I hate them on the infidelity count.)

I mean, it's not like infidelity is a "trigger" issue for me. It doesn't hurt to read it, at least, no more than it should. Will it ruin a piece for me? Yes. Will it ruin my day? No. Those types of issues are where I think it starts getting grayer, and that's where the whole reader responsibility aspect of the debate actually starts gaining some ground.

(Granted, the obvious answer in the case of fanfic is just to do the highlighted warnings. It's an ideal compromise. It's just more the philosophical aspect.)

And what about fandom-to-fandom? I mean, BSG is a DARK canon to start. (Also? I got apocofic on my cliche card. I am amused. EVERYTHING I write these days is apocalypse fic :) ) If you're going to write in BSG, I would think your readers would expect a certain level of darkness. I mean, in HP, if someone had suicidal thoughts, I'd be slapping a neon warning on it. In BSG, is there a character that didn't have suicidal thoughts in canon? I mean, come on- it got to the point of a cliche where if Character A pointed a gun at Character B, you could recite along with Character B "What are you waiting for? Just do it!" Not that I think that's healthy, mind :) I guess my point is just what would be expected and normal in one fandom could be warnable in another.

I also don't want to read fics where one of them rapes or tortures the other, or where Remus is a cutter.

Heh, see, in a way I think this is an interesting point, too. I mean, I'm right there with you, and I happily hit the back button on something like this. But it's not just the rape or torture thing, it's the I can never conceive of Sirius or Remus DOING that thing. And inevitably, for me, I become more offended by the bad characterization than I do by the actual act. (Or offended that the author thinks that the inclusion of rape or whatever automatically makes their fic edgy or heartbreaking.) And, sadly, fics generally do not come with the warning "Bad characterization, lack of punctuation, and insipid dialogue." :)

Like I said, I'm right there with you that the ideal compromise is the highlighted warnings, so I don't think we're really disagreeing. I'm just more interested in the theoretical aspects.

Hee! Yay GIP!

Well, there's no accounting for taste. :-P I'm sure some of my fics have had people thinking WTF? about certain things. (I also write teenage Sirius and James as foul-mouthed gits who swear a lot. Some people find that OOC because in canon nobody really swears, and Ron's are mild - Merlin's pants or whatnot. Whatever. I like them that way. :-P)

Yes, we do agree - I hope you didn't think I was being contrary. I was focusing on the grey areas you mentioned, and explaining where my own lines are. I think discussions like this are helpful, plus sometimes I like the navel gazing aspect. *g*

BSG is totally a dark canon. In fandoms like X Files, Prison Break, Hannibal/Silence of the Lambs, and similar, I would also expect disturbing content. It's part of the canon.

As for infidelity, whether or not I warn outright depends on the canon. In BSG Sam/Kara/Lee, and Zak/Kara/Lee - infidelity is canon. And if you're writing a Harry/Draco fic that takes place during the time period in canon where Harry is married to Ginny and Draco to Astoria, and you're following canon rather than writing an EWE AU, then infidelity is more than implied. I think it's when you're writing a shippy story, where the focus is on a particular pairing and you don't have canon or that implied situation, where it should either be warned for, or at least listed in the pairings.

It makes me think of my (our! Hee!) Teddy/Cedric fic. Originally I had Teddy returning during the second task, and Cedric was going to be conflicted between Cho and Teddy, among other things (and there would have been more with Remus and even Sirius. :-P) But Tarie listed infidelity as a squick, so I cut out that whole plotline (and saved a good 10K words! LOL). But if she hadn't listed it as a squick, and I had written it, I probably would have warned for mild infidelity just by choice, not because I felt obligated. I mean, I didn't consider Cedric 'cheating' on Roger to be infidelity. Nobody complained either, but if someone had asked, I would have added something to the header.

And that, too, I think is an important factor. For the most part, authors don't not warn out of malicious intent, and even in the instance with the BBB fic in question that started this round of discussion/wank, the author didn't realize her scene could be read as dub-con, and when people asked her to add the warning to her header, she did immediately. It wasn't a problem. But the wank last year with the Bandom fic with the frat pledging and the flat out rape scene, the author, when asked to put a warning, refused and said the fic was meant to be disturbing and warning would violate her artistic integrity or something to that effect.

The wanky part of this current 'wank' is that someone - after the author added the warning - decided to write a 3 comment-long diatribe in response to the fic about why warning was necessary, blah blah, which, considering it was after the fact, was condescending and wanky and would have been better served as a meta post in her own journal.

But I'm glad we're having the discussion. It's one of those topics that comes around cyclically, but this time people have added more to the discussion.

Oh, and here's a handy-dandy code for highlighted spoiler warnings that also has the code for the 'hover' text: http://amadi.dreamwidth.org/40143.html

Thank you for this - I'm in increasing agreement that there's some very problematic language being thrown around, which I'm reading some different perspectives on now and hoping to avoid myself in the future. And of course, comparing a piece of fiction to an instance of assault is both inappropriate and unnecessary, and wish that we (general, well-meaning but screwing up 'we') would stop doing that.

As far as I can tell, the flow of the discussion (both in this case and in previous incarnations) goes 'why should I warn?' --> 'here's the most compelling reason why'. Of course, the circumstances of the people who are going to be most affected by this issue go far beyond fandom, but hopefully this latest round of conversation will mean it's an act of decency more people will take it upon themselves to do.

I've been reading a lot about this. I think my biggest "WTF?" moment was when I read a comment that said "Oh, most people don't read fanfic to be challenged, so there shouldn't be any need for warnings!" Way to miss the point, person.

To be honest, I'll admit that I probably haven't warned as well as I should in my stories. I posted a fic that had torture, and I warned for gore and violence, but not specifically torture. I didn't warn for the emotional torture that was going on at the same time, either. It didn't even occur to me. This discussion's made me very glad that I've never had much of an audience, and I'm going to revise my warning system.

I don't get how people can be so strongly anti-warning. I understand why some don't want to warn just when people are mildly disturbed by a plot element and not triggered, but being so vehemently against it just seems like a waste of time, and mean to boot.

As per summaries, they are the devil to me when I'm posting fics. I want to explain enough so people know what they ought to/need to but not give the entire story away. And given I have a fickle fiction muse, I don't get the most practice. -.-

BTW, I also haven't entered much spn fandom for not liking Wincest.

It would ruin my tricky plot point? Maybe, but it would alienate
readers and friends, and that's more important to me than a potential spoiler.

*nod nod* That's part of what's been baffling me about this whole thing. Like, I've seen the differing opinions on warnings and how they relate to mass media--people watch stuff all the time without knowing what might come up, versus movies and books do provide indications of content--and I think they're interesting arguments, but I also think they're totally not the point. Even if people walked into every movie or opened every book with no conception of what was waiting for them, is that really the standard we want to apply to fandom? We don't want to be better than that? I'm no raging anti-capitalist, or anything, but the best we can do for each other is to do as a bunch of huge corporations would? Really? Even when these people are your friends? Or friends of your friends? Or people who could really easily have been your friends, if you'd tumbled into the same fandoms at the same time?

people who don't use warnings are assholes. i win, end of argument.

Here's where we are going to disagree.

I just can't get into the issue of not warning as an act of indecency.

I think there are plenty of things that belong firmly in the realm of morality, but I don't like trying to turn this into one of them.

"It only take an extra second to be polite,"--sure, I can get behind that.

Yes. Fandom is a community, and while not everyone who participates does so with the same intensity or places the same importance on it ("Fandom was my sanctuary when I was going through a rough time" vs. "Oh, please, it's just fandom!") I think that most of us - and a large majority at that - want it to be a safe, inclusive place. I mean, look at all of the discussion that came out of racefail or amazonfail, and other discussions we've had in fandom about making fandom (and beyond fandom - the publishing and bookselling industries) inclusive for POC, for LGBTQ people. And now some of these same people can turn around and tell survivors that they don't care? All of these groups overlap as well. It's like saying "my issue is important, and here's why you need to consider it, but your issue doesn't affect me personally so bugger off."

And even more, the remedy - adding something like "Read at your own risk; I don't warn" or "this story may contain issues that are triggery for some people" that literally takes seconds to type up - is something simple, easy, and non-intrusive. It just boggles that consideration is considered such a hassle.

Fandom is different from pro-fic/mass media. We approach the mediums differently, mentally/emotionally, and we have different expectations. You can't compare them equally because they're not starting out on equal footing. Not to mention that the aim of pro-fic/mass media is artistic expression and profit, where the aim of fandom, if it even has one, is more artistic expression with infinite diversity in infinite combinations, and community. (And fandom is the antithesis of capitalism! Hell, we're not even a democracy; we're more like a democratic socialist/communist community when you get down to it! :-P)

Warnings as spoilers doesn't make sense to me. I'm trying to work out why they simply aren't spoilery to me, given that anyone on my flist saying they liked or didn't like the most recent Dr Who episode would be a spoiler.

I've got warnings: none as a warning level on my fic comm (still not complete). Anything that actually has a pairing is already at warning level 1. 2 if there's kissing.

Yup. It's not hard to realise on common sense grounds that some things are just obviously dicey and should be warned for, or at least hinted at with a 'read at your own risk, anything may lie in wait within and probably does' type notice. I do sometimes get exasperated when people who write this type of fic (some of whom I'm very fond of) seem surprised when fandom as a whole balks at it as not everyday mainstream fare. It just isn't, and it's not unreasonable to at least hint to people that they're now entering bandit country.

I think that you would need a tag system too large to properly keep track.

No, wait, memories! Someone posts a post with the link/header info and summary of the fic and people comment to add warnings. (They would have to be warnings, not reviews or critiques, so there would have to established guidelines on what makes a warning (badly translated German would be a warning I'd want on fic, for example, also embarrassment squick).)

We can put fics in the memories of the comm by author and fandom, because people are only going to be using it to check for their squicks and triggers on fic they've already found.

But it would end up being an archive of all the fic on the internet, so it's unlikely to be practical to use (although it would be fun to contribute to).

Yes - the size issue and limiting people's ability to use it maliciously or to cause wank were the major stumbling blocks for me. Although I wasn't really thinking of it being used for all fics on the internet - just for ones that don't already contain trigger warnings. So if you have a situation where the author doesn't post a warning for a fic with a potential trigger and then when asked politely doesn't wish to add one - it could go on the site.

I suspect, however, that that would probably upset the authors in question - though it would only be spoiling plot points for those who choose to use the site who are trying to avoid triggers...

It's difficult, as I can't really comprehend the determination of people who don't want to use warnings.

And, sorry that wandered into rambling territory.

It would have to have all fics, otherwise if a fic had no warnings and wasn't on the list it's either safe or no one's listed it yet. So you'd have to list safe stories as well.

Unless someone could write a firefox add on that would list all the delicious tags that fic had ever gotten (and from whom). There are authors who I know always tag for non-con and dub-con on delicious, so seeing that they had listed a fic and not tagged it would mean that it was safe. This would make multiple arching of fic an issue in terms of consistency.

Also, it's not going to help up win the debate on warnings in the first place. It seems a lot of work to do instead of the conceptual shift needed to ensure that the majority of fics are have lists for triggery content. (Although, from the posts on the topic, warnings are considered standard in all the areas of fandom I frequent.)

I definitely don't think you're being contrary- just having an interesting conversation :)

I didn't know the history. I have a tendency to stay in my little corners in my little fandoms and happily weave my characters into their own complicated worlds, so when something like this goes on I'm only vaguely aware because my flist implodes :) But I totally agree that for the most part, people don't not warn to be mean.

I think I'm out of intelligent comments, though, so I'll go back to writing Dee/Gaeta/Hoshi/Narcho porn :)

Right - what I mean is, decency in the sense of human kindness and community spirit and all of those things, which don't necessarily need to be couched in a sense of absolute morality, because I see where you're coming from there.

Oh, yes, by the way- can someone please explain to me WTF is dub con? I mean, I get that it's dubious consent. But what, what, WHAT is that?

I've written rape. I've written fics where the sex was violent, but it was clear that it was consensual. I've written one fic where the act wasn't rape because the bottom was completely consenting, but the top considered it... something he regretted, I guess, because he knew that he wouldn't have stopped if the bottom had told him to. But I still can not figure out what the heck dubcon is. I mean, "do you want to have sex" has two answers... yes (consensual) or no (rape). I guess you could make a case for someone who's drunk or stoned and would legally be incapable of making a decision? Is that dubcon?

Help?

Dubious consent, to me is where there is some kind of coercion or manipulation involved. Like my Stan/Lucius fic, I consider the Stan/Lucius bit dub-con because Lucius completely manipulated Stan into it, and used him. Also, yes, under the influence of drugs or alcohol where they are less inhibited and would consent where they probably wouldn't when sober.

Also, in the case of repeated asking (wheedling) followed by lots of nos and then a reluctant, "yeah, whatever, all right", but it depends on the situation and comfort of the character, you know? Because it's not always a black and white yes or no. Do you want to have sex? Yes. Can I tie you up, blindfold you, and do kinky things to you during sex? Ummm...

Really, any situation where the character acquiesces yet it's clear that they're not exactly comfortable about it, and/or would choose not to be in that situation if it was possible; they gave in to peer pressure, they maybe want to sex but aren't all that keen on the flog in their partner's hand...

So, for alcohol/drug abuse: would you warn for alcoholism in a Tigh fic or morphine use in a Gaeta fic? :)

I'm not sure what I would do if I were writing for BSG, because it such a short space of canon in comparison, but if I were writing an Iron Man fic set during the part of canon where Tony Stark was majorly suffering from alcoholism, I'd include that in the summary and/or warn for it, because there are large stretches of canon where it's not so much an issue (also AUs where it hasn't come up in canon at all or has only been vaguely alluded to, like movieverse and the Marvel Adventure titles - basically the G-rated version of superhero stuff they publish for kids, but a lot of fans like to write for it because it's not as Gloom! Doom! Nihilism! Despair! as mainline canon).

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that when I wrote a character as being an alcoholic in an HP fic back in the day, I didn't warn. I'm afraid to go back and check whether I did or not, because I fear the terrible job I probably did trying to write something like alcoholism and PTSD as a 19-year-old. And I didn't warn for alcoholism or terminal illness in my Tombstone/Old West historical RPF fic either. I suspect because Tony's alcoholism is a Huge Big Deal in Iron Man and is directly addresses in the narrative (he nearly commits suicide via alcohol poisoning at one point, nd struggles extensively with trying to get sober) whereas Doc's drinking is more of an understated thing.

Makes sense.

I was sort of being factious, but at the same time, there are some interesting points. For one, I assume that anyone who actually likes Saul Tigh enough to search out or read Tigh fic will know that the fic WILL involve alcohol, or an alcoholic on the dry. There is no stretch in canon where one of those two descriptors does not fit Saul Tigh. Gaeta, on the other hand, is a morpha user for a very short time- there's only a couple of weeks between the amputation and his death.

Now that I think of it, I wrote a fic where Gaeta was on the morpha, but I didn't even THINK to warn. Because they're canon, I think the truth is that I'd only warn in a few situations:

1.) If I'd really gotten inside of Gaeta or Tigh's head at the time of the use, trying to explore what it felt like from their perspective to be in that place. However, my general feeling is if I'd done that, that would be the focus of the fic and it would be in the summary.

2.) If I'd really gotten inside someone who was close to either of them, watching their decline, and dealing specifically with their feelings about it. Again, I suspect this would the focus of the fic and would be in the summary.

3.) If I was having a character (and in BSG, this is SO possible) say or believe some nasty things or hurtful stereotypes about the substance abuser. The scene I wrote that I actually found the most ouchy didn't have Gaeta in it at all, but was an argument between Zarek and Hoshi after Zarek figured out that Hoshi gave Gaeta the morpha, and he had some fairly harsh words for Hoshi. I also wrote a Pern fic a long time back where one of the main characters had bulimia, and because of the not-so-impressive state of health care on Ninth Pass Pern, there were some characters that really had some awful things to say about eating disorders. We warned the hell out of that one, not only for the eating disorder but for the reactions of other characters.

However, if Tigh drinks on screen in a Dee-Hoshi fic (which has happened several times), I'm not warning for alcoholism, because that's where it does start getting silly, y'know? :) Warning: I wrote Tigh in character just... yeah. And yes, I'm getting a little silly here myself, but I think that's kind of where the gray line in warnings is. Writing an in-depth look at why Tigh is an alcoholic, how he feels, and how he copes probably should have some sort of forewarning for the audience (and probably does in the summary). Writing Tigh in general doesn't, even if he's drinking on duty, drunk, or even making comments about the fact he drinks.

See, whenever I see "Tigh," I still think of the guy from Original BSG. *gris* I spent months wondering why no one in New BSG fandom seemed to write Apollo/Starbuck fic when they were *so* slashy in the original and surely genderswapping Starbuck shouldn't be putting people off the pairing that much before I realized their names had been changed to Lee and Kara.

I also wrote a Pern fic a long time back where one of the main characters had bulimia,

*sits up straighter* Pernfic? Do you have links to any non-eating disorders Pern fic? Fanfic for that series that isn't RPG-form is impossible to find.

LOL!!!! Yeah, original BSG Tigh vs. New BSG Tigh just are not even close to the same guy.

My stuff is all RPG/zine fics, because that was what Anne McCaffery would allow. But I know that

thistlerose wrote some Pernfic, if you haven't found it yet. That's pretty much all I know of!

anyone who claims that their only issue is the flashback caused by fanfiction is lacking necessary insight or is being somewhat less than (understandably) transparent about their suffering.

A trigger is not necessarily a flashback.

I don't think anyone is saying that fanfiction is their only issue. I believe people are only talking about fanfiction here because adding warnings to their fic is one way (and in some cases, the only way) that fandom writers can help other fandom readers who have triggers.

Triggers are a mental health issue and a disability. Not putting warnings on fic is not rape, but it is ableism, and experiencing sexual assault unwarned for is likely to throw someone who has experienced sexual assault back into the mindset of when they were assaulted, as

impertinence discusses very eloquently in her essay.

Hi. Thanks for commenting.

Much of my reaction comes from my commitment to issues of mental health accessibility and my background in mental health liberation.

I discuss why contextualizing this issue in terms of MH disability/access is in error, and what the most pressing issues are in terms of access for the MH disability community, in my latest lj and DW posts.

I invite you to take a look, and look forward to discussing this with you further.

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a little warning would be nice

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here from metafandom

Re: here from metafandom