such_heights | Grr and argh, excuse me while I get my feminist on

Current Mood: irritated

Grr and argh, excuse me while I get my feminist on

I've got a few rants that have been building for a while now. This is the more general one that I think I'm going to let blow this evening.

I get angry, you see. I get really bloody angry about the way so many people talk about gender and sexuality - in the news, in fiction, at the table next to me in the student bar.

I get angry that working, professional women are constantly referred to as 'girls'. I'm a nineteen-year-old student, I'm a girl. The 25-year-old woman who was at the reception desk this morning or presenting a TV show or winning a sporting medal or calling you on behalf of a company - yeah, I'm pretty sure she's a proper adult. No, it's not the semantic equivalent of 'guy', it's patronising, doubly so when you're speaking in a professional capacity.

I get angry, because "'women' is not an acceptable generalisation." (Bones, I love you so very much.) 'Gay men', 'lesbians', 'bisexuals' and 'transsexuals' aren't either, please stop it.

I get angry that Bones is a shining beacon of positive and interesting portraits of women in an otherwise bleak mainstream TV world. Every ensemble work of fiction should be able to come up with characters like Brennan and Angela and Cam, who have agency and storyline potential and flaws and general win, and it shouldn't be noteworthy in the slightest.

I get angry every time I watch a film or turn on the TV or pick up a book and women are there solely to be the receptacles of male love, where they don't get given purpose, or where if they have careers then they can't possibly be both effective in them and have romantic feelings of any sort - their pining will affect their job, or they'll chuck in that nasty, high-pressure working environment to go be with their man, whereas men get to be spurred on and inspired to heroics by their own loves.

I get angry that being female and single is a tragedy no matter what the individual wants, but being a bachelor is a-okay.

I get angry that so many women have been sufficiently coded by society to believe the previous point is true.

I get angry that people believe so emphatically that gender is a binary, and that 'women' and 'men' can be lumped together in a big comfy group of similar traits.

I get angry when people are mocked for being 'girly', that women need to be One Of The Boys to be taken seriously and that men must fit into some sort of super-macho paradigm.

I get angry that being gay is innately hi-larious - after all, gay people are all one big homogeneous (and lest we forget, entirely sex-obsessed) group that conform to all your stereotypes, totally!

I get angry that being gay is acceptable as long as you're not 'camp' or 'butch', heaven forbid.

I get angry that the concept of varying degrees of bisexuality is apparently too much for some people.

I get angry that people are viewed so differently once it's revealed they're gay. I get seriously angry when it's used to tar them professionally - gay school teachers, sports coaches, the list goes on and on, and I get really mind-boggingly angry that gay people are so widely assumed to be unable to keep their hands to themselves and are pretty much a step away from paedophilia at any moment.

I get angry that people are so impossibly offensive about anyone who doesn't conform to their own ideas of gender identity. Transgendered folks aren't real people, you know! They certainly didn't go to your school, work in your office, sit next to you on the bus this morning and they're definitely don't get on with their lives like everyone else. ... oh, wait.

I get angry when people don't talk about each other as if they're just that: people.

I get angry about how much crap fandom itself pulls on these sorts of issues. The amount of vitriol directed against female characters (beautifully discussed by

lyras here the other day), the way het and femslash are so regularly described as being 'icky' because omg girlparts, the way people throw around the most staggering rude language.

I get angry, because I know I've been guilty of perpetuating some of this myself, maybe still am if I don't watch myself effectively, and I get angry every time I let people talk like this around me and don't say a damn thing.

I get angry that people don't take me seriously when I do talk about this, that I'm accused of taking things too personally or being overly emotional or young or whatever else. After all, I am a man-hating lesbian feminazi (as the icon, that I really should acquire, says, wanting equal rights is just like invading Poland!) who should shut the hell up because I'm making a big deal out of nothing. Ugh ugh ugh.

The list goes on, but I do believe I shall stop now. The point is, I get so mad about all of the above and more, and then I come on here and remind myself that amongst the wank and the nonsense there is all of you, and many more people on LJ besides, who are sane and smart and generally awesome. Thank goodness for that.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

&hearts &hearts &hearts &hearts &hearts

WORD, most definitely in the general sense and particularly fandomwise, because how is it that all these fangirls go "EW" over het and femslash when we ourselves are female? i understand if you aren't particularly interested in it, but girlparts should not squick you when you can see them clearly in your mirror! and also, \o/ for your point about single women! i once had that conversation with a friend of mine, and i got the most incredulous look when i said i'd been happily single for the better part of my life, barring the two months with my ex- and i hadn't been noticeably happier in those two months either, except in the exciting getting-to-know-you sort of way.

Exactly! I really can understand not being that into reading het, because it's kind of everywhere anyway and fandom's a good place to avoid it - actually, what I guess I don't get so much are slash fans who very adamantly just read boy/boy stuff. I get that that's what people find hot and therefore more appealing, but your general interest is slash doesn't extend at all to the girls? Really? That seems a little limiting. Eh, it really depends on the fandom I suppose.

And yes! We do not need relationships to complete us! I haven't been on a date in a few years now and have yet to implode in a mess of neediness and despair! \o/

I really can understand not being that into reading het, because it's kind of everywhere anyway and fandom's a good place to avoid it- exactly my feelings on it, though as you said, it depends on the fandom. i personally don't read femslash because, so far, i haven't come across a fandom with compelling female characters for whom i find subtext- and frankly, any non-canon relationship without subtext can only go so far, in my opinion.

We do not need relationships to complete us!- again, EXACTLY. my friend J put it best when we spoke about her last boyfriend: "without him, my life is full. with him, it's almost overfull." the world would be a much better place if we could all think like that!

i haven't come across a fandom with compelling female characters for whom i find subtext

Which is a tragedy all of itself, how a lot of writers are really bad at giving us strong female relationships. :( A lot of the time in fandoms like HP, it's extrapolating that these two characters would hypothetically work together, rather than going on the back of the fact that they actually do. Which is a fun exercise in itself, but I do know what you mean. I guess Firefly and Doctor Who are my only fandoms that have real honest-to-goodness subtext to play with.

And yes, talk about a time-drain! Fitting in a relationship must require all kinds of time-management skills.

Which is a tragedy all of itself, how a lot of writers are really bad at giving us strong female relationships.- YES. not to say that there aren't compelling female characters; there are a lot of them- but the conflation of "compelling" and "has subtext with another female character?" not so much of that. *g*

I know! Whyyy? Classic example in our corner of fandom is Lily: totally awesome, gets shipped with a bunch of people, but has no acknowledge relationships with other women except her sister.

oh, i hear that- i'd love to see more of Lily! though now that i think about it, Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series ought to go a long way towards relieving your current frustrations, particularly the first three books. i feel the need to reread them now that we've had this conversation, just to remind myself that YES, there are strong female characters that i have absolutely no problem with. \o/

Ooh, I have heard so many good things about that series! *pushes up the to-read list*

I guess Firefly and Doctor Who are my only fandoms that have real honest-to-goodness subtext to play with.

Here here, can we say Kaylee and Inara?

Exactly! And also, wow, 'Turn Left' where Rose keeps oh-so-accidentally bumping into Donna and then can only hook up with the Doctor when he's half-Donna? Mm-hmm, I see what's happening there.

I don't have much to say, except WORDSAUCE! ♥

Mmm, tasty! :D

ILU. This is awesome, and totally true. I'm still trying to break out of some of the in-grown gender stereotypes I, as a woman, was saddled with from birth. We're going to make it, women! Don't give up!

♥! And eesh, yes, it's sort of horrible when you realise all the baggage you're carting round, isn't it? Boo, society!

would it be inappropriate for me to say,

YOU GO GIRL!

?

Hahaha, that makes me feel so 90s and Spice Girls, I love it.

Word! I agree with everything here. Although especially the stuff about bisexuality sticks out to me, because lately it seems I've just had a rash of people refusing to understand that I fall somewhere between bisexual and lesbian on a spectrum. It has to be either one or the other, and then people get all upset if they think I'm a lesbian, then find out I'm dating a guy. Argh. That probably didn't make much sense, it just frustrates me a lot.

Grr! Yes, I can only imagine how frustrating and ridiculous that must be. And the whole thing about how being mostly interested in one gender or the other AUTOMATICALLY MEANS you are totally committed that way, oh yes. I mean, due to the current statistics about my own experiences I think it's unlikely I'll be romantically interested in a guy any time soon, but I can't help but wonder if I'm extra put off due to the fact everyone I know would freak the hell out about it. Stupid labelling crap, bleurgh.

Yeah, I definitely feel reluctant to even say I have a small crush on a guy because I'm worried that people will be confused and freak out. It's really quite annoying. I just want to be free to like who I like and not have to worry about other people's perceptions of my sexuality.

Absolutely! Oh, this 21st century and its quaint little categories, way to make life needlessly complicated.

I agree with every single point you've brought up. I admit, I haven't been too clued into feminist thought until recently -- although I've always been a big proponent of reproductive and gay rights -- so I totally know what you mean about being guilty about perpetuating.

And an massive WORD for your femmeslash thought. One of the reasons I stopped writing pairings for the most part is because either there are so few decent female characters to put in pairings and because fandom looks down upon femmeslash so frequently. So I was like, "Screw you all, I'm writing gen!" And that's probably the only thing that really pains me about Supernatural; there's so many guys and not enough girls.

I could go on and on about the perceived gender binary (ugh) and condescension and omnisexuals and such, but I'll have too many characters for one comment, heh. So, basically \o/ for you. :D

Yeah, I've only really started getting super super feminist since getting into fandom, actually, where my eyes were opened quite considerably to all sorts of things I hadn't considered. Now I'm doing a course in it next semester and am all kinds of excited! :D

Yes and yes - I love that my corner of HP fandom is very femslash friendly, and also that it's seen as being pretty neat in Who fandom. SPN... yeah, that's one of the various reasons I couldn't really commit to it as a big fannish interest, much as I love the show and a lot of the writers. I can only really invest myself in it when I know I've also got Doctor Who to come back to, where women are vitally important even if they're not always treated decently in terms of plotlines etc.

\o/! Ilu and everyone else that agrees on this stuff, basically.

DAMN FUCKING STRAIGHT!!!

:D :D :D How I love my flist!

I am with you on all of that, esspecially:

I get angry that being female and single is a tragedy no matter what the individual wants, but being a bachelor is a-okay.
I get angry that so many women have been sufficiently coded by society to believe the previous point is true.

I mean so many times the first question people ask when they see you again after awhile is 'are you seeing anybody?' Or women that remain single all their lives are 'spinsters.' Its ridiculous! It goes back to the one you aid about how women have to supposedly be validated by a man. They can't have their own identity outside of who they are dating or fucking or how they can get a man or what man they have or want. A woman can't just be her with her traits and personality.

And these:

I get angry that being gay is innately hi-larious - after all, gay people are all one big homogeneous (and lest we forget, entirely sex-obsessed) group that conform to all your stereotypes, totally!
I get angry that people are viewed so differently once it's revealed they're gay. I get seriously angry when it's used to tar them professionally - gay school teachers, sports coaches, the list goes on and on, and I get really mind-boggingly angry that gay people are so widely assumed to be unable to keep their hands to themselves and are pretty much a step away from pedophilia at any moment.

Also how its supposedly the responsibility of a gay person to tell everyone that they are gay. Straight people don't tell me when I meet them 'oh, by the way, I'm straight.' I don't feel that my sexuality needs to be part of my introduction or something that I have to tell everyone 'just so they know.'

Also, the 'keep hands to self and one step away from pedophilia' is one reason I wasn't so sold on The History Boys that so many people had been saying was an awesome movie. I think it paints a horrible view of gay men. The only good of it was the acceptance of all the boys of their teachers and fellow student's sexuality but beyond that the move showed the teachers as (almost) unable to keep away from students and/or end up having messed up lives. (Sorry, bit of a rant of my own there)

Anyhow, I am taking up a huge comment space. But as stated, good rant and all in my head too

A woman can't just be her with her traits and personality.

I know! What the hell?? Ick ick ick. I AM OKAY WITH BEING SINGLE, and I really shouldn't have to capslock that statement.

I don't feel that my sexuality needs to be part of my introduction or something that I have to tell everyone 'just so they know.'

THIS. So much this. Argh, I could write essays on the horror of moving to a new place and having that whole issue of *when* do I tell these people and how do I bring it up and why on earth do people care so much anyway, but it's a horrible awkward, unnecessary thing. I wish it didn't make a fundamental difference to how people see me, except that I know that it does. D: I just happen to be interested in dating women, along with my interests in sci-fi and alternative music and trying to travel the world! Why people care so very much about the first one I really don't know.

Argh, History Boys. It's really funny you should mention that, I was only rewatching the film the other day. The thing is, I *love* it, love the play, love the script, love the film, have seen it many many times, even wrote about it during my last set of school exams, am a big fan of the various productions I've seen. And yet. That one, big thing that really bugs me. And I adore Alan Bennet, I do, but I don't know why he wrote things quite like that, why he didn't extend the discussion to the relationship *all* teachers have with their students, why he couldn't give Posner a happy ending (the play is even more depressing than the film, in an incidental yet interesting turn of events). I really do love the Irwin/Dakin thing, but when you throw Hector and Posner in there as well the whole thing gets a bit uncomfortable and I'm still not sure what Bennet was really trying to say.

Yeah I read on Wiki how Posner's end is in the play, that's horrid and it makes it look like you can't be gay and happy or if things go good for you something has to come and mess it up Hector dying and Irwin breaking his leg which ends the possibility with Dakin

Pretty much. :(

Yay, Amy! M.

Haha, thank you! Letting off steam amongst friends is always satisfying.

<3 for all of this.

One of the things I love most about having my lj is that my f-list are supportive of me being all rar about gender issues (or at least the vocal ones are, some people may be disagreeing and/or humouring me but if they are they're not saying anything).

On the 'Ew girlparts' thing, I have clear memories of a rather entertaining/mortifying sex education talk at school where the nurse/health worker had a drawing up on the board of female genitalia taught us all the component parts and gave us strict instructions to take a mirror and have a good look at ourselves and also to...her words were 'explore your bodies, if you don't know what you like you'll never be able to tell anyone else'. But the bit that sticks with me is the ingrained different responses to male and female masturbation. Acceptable for boys but not girls. This idea that female genitalia were somehow 'dirty' and shameful, how wrong that idea was. Girl parts are no more and no less disgusting than boy parts. They are parts of our bodies, they just spend less time in the sun than our fingers, toes, breasts or noses, you're entitled to not find them particularly appealing but why must we perceive them as repulsive.

I'd never really considered that I might actually be lucky to have as many gender issues as I did/do have, because I can acknowledge my own body-hate, work on it and learn to love the skin I'm in for all its failings. So many girls spend so much time projecting their own body-hate onto other people and that saddens me so much. Sometimes you need to appreciate someone else's beauty (whether sexually or platonically) to see it in yourself. The human body is an amazing wonderful and above all beautiful thing, no matter the shape of the genitalia or the colour of the skin that covers it, sometimes I think we forget that.

Your icon=WIN (as does your comment!)

I love your icon so much. :D

God, I can't even *imagine* that being brought up at my school - an all-girls' school that had a pretty wishy-washy concept of feminism and sexuality and where I was the only totally gay girl in the entirety of my school that I knew of because we were all forced to be just that closeted, argh. But yeah, total agreement on the ridiculous shamefulness of women actually knowing what they enjoy in sex, heaven help us, and you can see that so much in society at large where all language applied to masturbation is pretty much entirely male-centric.

The human body is an amazing wonderful and above all beautiful thing, no matter the shape of the genitalia or the colour of the skin that covers it, sometimes I think we forget that.

♥, really. Yes. That. Especially when you factor in ridiculous standards of beauty and the obsessive culture of dieting and blah blah blah. Actually, in general, people are kind of hot.

I get angry every time I watch a film or turn on the TV or pick up a book and women are there solely to be the receptacles of male love, where they don't get given purpose, or where if they have careers then they can't possibly be both effective in them and have romantic feelings of any sort - their pining will affect their job, or they'll chuck in that nasty, high-pressure working environment to go be with their man, whereas men get to be spurred on and inspired to heroics by their own loves.

WORD, SISTER. Word. Well said. *applauds*

\o/! Why do they do this to us, Tro? Why?

oh, go, you! *♥ you madly*

:D ♥ back yourself. Also, hi! Been a while since we've heard from you, how are you keeping these days?

:D :D I am running around trying to be very virtuous and productive in RL and mostly it is succeeding, which is good, because it kind of has to. so, good, mostly, though there are teeth-gritting parts. How have you been?

Ah, that is most excellent! Though these meatspace activities never do seem to go smoothly, do they? I have been very well, happily bobbing along during my last few days before semester kicks off again. Summer, you have been good to me.

This was extremely cathartic to read, so god knows what it must've felt like to write! Thanks for posting. As for this:

I get angry that people don't take me seriously when I do talk about this, that I'm accused of taking things too personally or being overly emotional or young or whatever else.

God, yes. If I had a penny for every time RL friends (male and female) have told me I'm reading too much into things or taking them personally...

I think I heat peak volume of crankiness, and now, yes, I do feel much better.

So maddening! People's total unwillingness to admit there could even conceivably be a problem with something makes me very sad.

Exactly! Strict notions of gender and sexuality just don't work in the real world. They're damaging.

So sad, and so true.

lyras said, that felt good to read! I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to see a young woman with such passion and clarity. It gives me hope for the future. *says the crone* :)

Thank you for mentioning the "girly-boys" and "eeew girl parts" issue in fandom--I have a couple of unfinished essays on both of these that I will never finish. I decided that I will work on lovingly writing both into fic instead because it is better for my blood pressure.

It is absolutely maddening how people feel entitled to spew sexist, racist, heterosexist, transphobic crap and if you mention that perhaps they might be slightly incorrect on that count, you are the one causing a problem and ruining the evening with your dogmatic beliefs and lack of humor. That is something you have to expect--and you have a right to decide when you want to confront them directly, when you need to leave the room, when you just don't have the energy, and when you say something like, "I generally prefer strawberry to butter pecan."

♥

Haha, thank you!

Sadly yes, I think you might be right about the blood pressure: some discussions just aren't worth having publicly. I'll always be pleased to see those sorts of ideas show up in your writing, though!

you are the one causing a problem and ruining the evening with your dogmatic beliefs and lack of humor

*sigh* Yes, this. I'm willing to accept that there's a time and a place for politics and so on, but when it's that kind of nonsense that was ruining my evening in the first place I feel I ought to be entitled to kick up a bit of a fuss! Alas that walking away is often the more plausible alternative.

There is a time and a place for politics. But, as you said, you are probably not usually the one that brings this stuff up when you don't think your opinions will be well received. And you are absolutely entitled to kick up a bit of a fuss, just as you are entitled not to if you don't want to deal with the reaction. I find that sometimes a simple, "That language bothers me" or "I don't find that to be true" can be a non-threatening middle ground. In my less tactful moments and have said, "I can't believe you just said that" perhaps with some other expletives thrown in. Sometimes people will actually learn from you. But, you are not living in the world full of unfounded fear and groundless hatred--and that is a good thing.

Yeah, there are plenty of instances where saying something will actually make a difference to people's perceptions - it's often just thoughtlessness, after all. Non-threatening middle ground sounds good to me! My default responses seem either to be quietly simmering or to really let one off - I should probably find a workable compromise.

Just. Yes. ♥♥

Ever since I started my new job I've had mild but definite sexist comments made to me...but I don't feel comfortable saying anything because they're all nice people, and I feel like I'd be doing them a disservice or something. Not to mention all the crap that a identifying-lesbian friend of mine went through when she started dating a man - LGBT support groups are meant to be, y'know, supportive!

Oh, that's horrible - work is a classic case of nonsense like that, isn't it? And the awkwardness of being unable to do anything about it. Also, your poor poor friend - I wish I could say I was surprised, but I'm really not. It hasn't been my experience that everyone who's involved in the lgbt world is likely to be more accepting than anywhere else.

WORD!

Especially, for me at the moment, the referring to grown women as girls.
I need an angry icon, now.

Yes! Ugh, why does it happen? So, so frustrating.

♥

:D Like, yeah, totally ;)

w00t! :D

-flails all over you- I love you.

There's a bloke at work who asked me one time if I was a feminist (& in the oddest context too! another co-worker has just broken up with her boyfriend and was keeping up this diatribe of hatred against men, and she made some comment about how much men sucked at relationships, and I just said, 'To be honest, I think most people in general aren't great at relationships; it's not something specific to men.' & I'm not totally sure why that necessitated questioning about whether or not I'm a feminist, but apparently it did), and I said yes, and then he made it a running joke for several weeks, and I didn't mind per se, but finally I was just like, 'You know, I think our definitions of feminism are different. I think I'd define myself more as an equalist, when it comes right down to it.' And he hasn't really said anything since.

We also have a police officer who comes in periodically and he's made several sexist comments both to me and other female co-workers (one time he came in when Kate was sweeping the cafe and he said, 'Ah, a woman who knows her place and what she should be doing!'), and I patently refuse to serve him, because I'm not putting up with that, even if this is Texas. (Which is to say: nothing against Texas, honestly, but my Mum and I were just discussing the other night how clearly defined gender roles are here, as opposed to where we grew up in California, and how difficult it is to deal with that, and how some things you just have to let go.)

Also, I really want that icon about wanting equal rights = wanting to invade Poland.

'You know, I think our definitions of feminism are different. I think I'd define myself more as an equalist, when it comes right down to it.'

Yeah, the idea that those two are even distinct is bizarre to me - and actually, I get terribly angry at some so-called 'feminists' who do horrible things in the name of the cause.

And oh wow, that police officer sounds like a real winner. I'm glad you're not putting up with it! That's interesting what you say about the differences between states, I can well imagine things change a lot. And bleurgh, defined gender roles for the fail like that.

I'm going to keep an eye out for it now!

That is a completely excellent way to put it: equalism.
I find it distressing that when I talk to my female friends, they're often, "Feminism? That's crazy shit." I was like this in junior high, I have to admit, before I realised that feminism wasn't extremism, it was reaching for equality -- because it doesn't exist right now, and to think it does is to put blinkers in.

... *shuts up* :)

Yesss. My sister and I have spent a lot of time talking about things like this since moving here because race and gender issues are so much more pronounced than they were for us growing up (honestly? until I was seventeen, I thought racism was entirely eradicated in the US), and we decided that was the term that sort of encompassed all of this for us.

To be honest, I'm not totally pleased with it: I hate that 'feminism' has such a negative connotation, like it's something I should be ashamed of, and I'm not, but describing myself as an 'equalist' both encompasses more and doesn't immediately put me on the defensive.

Amy, you rock my world. I've been thinking about much the same things lately - I'm getting blasted with sexism at school, and Noldo has been going through sexist hell.

I am seventeen years old. No, I haven't had a boyfriend. No, I have no interest in having a boyfriend at the moment. Why?

Maybe because I'm interested in a guy who cares about more than getting me into bed. Maybe I want a friend as well as a boy. Maybe I want someone who takes me seriously, as a scientist, as a student, as everything that I am. And maybe I'm willing to wait for that, rather than dating the first guy who expresses any interest in me.

I am sick of being asked if I have a boyfriend, and being treated as a child because I don't. I am sick of being told that I'll give up this physics stuff when I go to college and meet a nice boy. I am sick of the implication that a woman on her own needs a man, but a man on his own is his own master (to quote Pratchett).

I am sick of being told I need to look prettier, that "I could be smart and pretty", that my entire worth as a human being can be determined by how much I look like a model.

I am sick of the implication that women don't need careers of their own. I am sick of the idea that guys have to go get well-paying jobs and women stay home and take care of the children. I am sick of people (both women and men!) telling me that this is the only option if you want to be happy. (Look at my family. My mother is the one who started her own business. Dad quit his high-paying engineering job and now works with her.)

I am sick of being told I act too much like a guy, that I need to act (and look, don't forget looks) more girly. I'm sick of my (female) computer science coach not believing that I can program because I have girl parts. I'm sick of being told that I shouldn't be who I am because of my gender, that I should love shoes and worry about my hair.

I'm sick of that this isn't limited to women; that men who aren't "manly" aren't right, and god forbid should you be transgender.

I do science and math. I hang out with guys. I'm sarcastic and not exactly friendly. I talk cars and computers. I refuse to eat salads; I'll take a salad any day. I also like going shopping with friends, gossiping, and sometimes want to dress up for no reason at all. You know what? None of this has a thing to do with my physical gender. It's me, as an indivdual. Nothing more. Nothing less.

God, Ave. SO MAD. And it makes me doubly upset when it's aimed at young women still in education - what a crappy way to keep the same old stuff going round and round.

And maybe I'm willing to wait for that, rather than dating the first guy who expresses any interest in me.

You frigid heartbreaker! Bloody ridiculous.

So much yes to all of your points - the idea of going on to higher education just so you can get married, certain subjects not being feminine enough, the very concept that you can act "too much" like one gender or the other. The hell? I get shtick about that in both directions depending on the situation, which is alarming and so very stupid.

I hate how women's physical attractiveness is placed at the forefront of their value, how men can be 'distinctive' or 'interesting' or any number of other variants of conventional good looks, or even not be lookers at all and still be idolised for their minds or their talents; we must be smart *and* hot in that oh-so-narrow, traditional sense. And we can only achieve the latter through extensive application of make-up and expensive shoes and fashionable clothes, clearly. The double standard, it burns!

I do science and math. I hang out with guys. I'm sarcastic and not exactly friendly. I talk cars and computers. I refuse to eat salads; I'll take a salad any day. I also like going shopping with friends, gossiping, and sometimes want to dress up for no reason at all. You know what? None of this has a thing to do with my physical gender. It's me, as an indivdual. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Oh, how I entirely adore you. Yes. THIS. ♥!

Yeah, it's a bitch and it's horrible, but the only good thing is that it is changing. Women hold positions of power, women can own their sexuality (or at least more than they did), gay marriage is on the political agenda in the States. There are other people on our side, and we'll change the world.

No, seriously. One of my classmates in Speech asked me if I'd go to Homecoming with another classmate I've spoken to all once. I said that I'd say no. He was very confused about this, and didn't get why I'd turn Chris down if he asked. I don't know, because I don't know anything more about him than his name?

You might talk to Noldo. She's on her way home (California, that is), now, I think, but she's been in a socially far more conservative culture for a month. The limitation on good Indian girls - because it is about girls, not women, who are in control of their own lives - are extremely scary.

There are other people on our side, and we'll change the world.

Yes, yes we will! \o/

One of the best things about an all-girls' school, I think, is the reduction in pressure of having A Date for those kinds of events - I can remember being really stressed by that whole concept at my primary school, when I was all of ten years old, sweet Rassilon help us.

Argh, yes, I have heard as much -

loneraven has been talking about that as well, actually. Horrible!

we must be smart *and* hot in that oh-so-narrow, traditional sense

*nods* That's one thing that really drives me crazy. I think that in a lot of areas, society IS making progress, largely because of people like you who speak up. :) But North American culture seems stuck at a point where, okay, yes, smart women are finally respected -- but they still have to be hot. And be able to juggle their "family life". And be suitably feminine. To which my response is, um, hello, THAT IS STILL A DOUBLE STANDARD.

EXACTLY. Really, wow. And so often women have to be exceptional in their careers and do things twice as well as men just to get the same amount of respect. I'd be happy being reasonably well respected and just reasonably good at my job, you know?

i totally just stepped over here again because i noticed your link, and this? I'm interested in a guy who cares about more than getting me into bed. Maybe I want a friend as well as a boy. Maybe I want someone who takes me seriously, as a scientist, as a student, as everything that I am. And maybe I'm willing to wait for that, rather than dating the first guy who expresses any interest in me.

SO MUCH WIN, and that's exactly how i feel. it's super-frustrating these days because my co-labbie, who is a postdoc and extremely intelligent (if occasionally extremely silly), keeps telling me that "if you don't snap them up now, there won't be so many [guys] to pick from later." ARGH! it's my life, isn't it? why should anyone make a timeline of my relationships? goodness knows i'm not! my first (and only, and now ex-) boyfriend i met the summer after my sophomore year of college, precisely because he was the first person who saw, understood, and accepted every part of me as a human being. why should i, or anyone, settle for less?

Also, I want to link to this, but it's friends-locked. Any chance it could be unlocked?

You got it!

*go you* I feel your anger so much. And do you want to come to Black Pride (http://www.ukblackpride.org.uk/index.asp) next year? Or just Pride?

I'm writing femmeslash for my

harry_holidays assignment and it makes me sad that there isn't more femmeslash out there.

Looking back at my fic recs (http://magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com/tag/fic+rec) I do rec a whole mix of stuff even though I'm a complete hypocrite and write mostly gen and slash.

Edited 2008-09-24 21:13 (UTC)

Ooh, that sounds like an excellent idea!

Hooray femmeslash - yeah, I think it is a shame, and it's partly to do with the canons we work with and partly to do with people genuinely being more interested in the boyslash, which, you know, fair enough, but partly to do with fandom being uber lame sometimes.

And heh, yes, I can't really talk myself, I've only written f/f pairings a handful of times, something I need to rectify and that right soon!

Yes write more. Write Martha/Donna/Rose *enables you*

I was directed here by

avendya, and at the moment, I'm giving you standing ovations. You articulated quite a few of my own issues so well that it almost feels like a relief. Thank you.

*bows* Thanks so much! I'm really pleased to hear this is resonating with other people, although simultaneously sad that this stuff is so universal.

Also, your icon is beautifull.

Yes, it is rather frustrating, in a way, especially this point:

I get angry that people don't take me seriously when I do talk about this, that I'm accused of taking things too personally or being overly emotional or young or whatever else.

People have told me time and again that I'm taking everything far too seriously; that I'm blowing some things out of proportion; that I shouldn't exaggerate; that nobody cares if I'm upset...

So, sing it, sister!

Also? Mind if I friend you? You like Doctor Who and Firefly
and Good Omens, and you are a feminist and a friend of

avendya's, which are all bonus points, as far as I'm concerned.

Even worse, that we're just hormonal or recovering from a break-up or irrational. It's very tough, being an angry woman!

And friend away! You seem pretty awesome your own self.

Thank you!

*friends*

Hi! Just came over from a nod at

magic_at_mungos. EXCELLENT post. If you are unaware of the Shakesville blog, you need to get over there right now.

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/

I think you'll feel right at home. :-)

Thank you! And ooh yay, bookmarking that link right now for tomorrow's breakfast reading.

I'm going to take a moment to enjoy yours too... ;)

Hee, you should have seen what the boys at our school got (I cannot look at those pole kitchen roll holders without sniggering even now) What is it with all-girls schools and avoiding dealing with sex and female empowerment? The one place that should be a breeding ground for feminism, all girls together, aren't girls great stuff and they all seem to be just the opposite. Figuring out sexuality at school is pretty horrendous at school without an environment where acknowledging it is taboo. The perception of masturbation is ridiculously and unnecessarily phallo-centric (http://xkcd.com/194/). As though female sexuality cannot possibly be constructed on its own grounds for its own sake. It's not all about 'filling a lack' women aren't incomplete. Masturbation is about pleasure pure and simple, sex should be about intimacy and shared pleasure, not some mechanical tab A into slot B. Penis' (flesh or artificial) have their place but they're not the be all and end all of female sexual pleasures.

People in general are most definitely hot. That's generally my standard explanation to people going 'but why?' at the bi thing. Forget the whole homogenous plastic 'beauty' in magazines, quirks are half the pleasure in assessing beauty. Diets should be about replacing processed food with fresh not starving yourself. *kicks media and fashion industries*

And, seeing as this comment is already epic, I'm going to provide another link because I found this one while I was looking for the above...I'm going to be a lighthouse keeper (http://xkcd.com/59/) when the floods roll back...Here's to being the girl in the tower, rescuing people...

YES YES YES. All of those things! I dream of a day when society gets more sex-positive, but I expect I'll be old and crochety by then, alas.

Diets should be about replacing processed food with fresh not starving yourself.

Would that more people, myself included, saw things that way. Attitudes to food in this society, now there's a whole other topic that's kinda rage-inducing.

I'd forgotten about that xkcd strip, and it is love!

Ah, so that's where that comment went to, I thought lj had eaten it but no, I'd just hit new comment rather than reply to this. *head-desk*

I might have to write food meta now. Food attitudes in society are so not healthy in a ridiculous amount of ways.

xkcd is love! I'd forgotten about that too, and it came up when I was searching for the penis one (which sums up my opinion of psychoanalysis especially when it gets anywhere near film theory) and was reminded of how excellent it was and that it was actually fairly relevant to the discussion!

Easily done! I've been getting myself thoroughly confused keeping up with all of this, which is awesome.

Yes, I'd love to read that! I'm slowly realising that along with everyone else ever I do have issues about a mile wide about food and the way I eat, it's so stupid.

Haha, yes, the penis one is most fabulous. They strike chords so beautifully sometimes!

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