such_heights | okay, thinky thoughts ahoy!

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okay, thinky thoughts ahoy!

spoilers through 3x01

My thoughts on Jack/Ianto in the new canon, let me show you them. Firstly, a couple of meta points about the writers' choices:

Jack being Ianto's first step outside of heterosexuality hasn't been my personal canon, but it's a characterisation I can buy easily enough. I'm kind of torn about how I feel about it, though. On the one hand, I am obviously a fan of the idea that people are people first, genders second, and that Ianto being involved with Jack doesn't necessitate that he label himself any particular way, or indeed at all, and that the writers are trying to say that it really isn't a big deal.

On the other hand, it's the we're-not-gay-we-just-love-each-other trope that is frequently a way for TV writers to side-step discussions about queer identities over and above sex and relationships. Does Ianto still think of himself as straight? Is he unsure? Is he concerned about being unsure? How has any of that affected his feelings about himself and his interaction with and perception of the world at large? It's pretty clear now that the writers aren't interested in delving into that stuff. Which is okay! I mean, this is a minor gripe that I have, really, because Torchwood is never going to be a show directed straight from my brain, but I am just saying that that is what I would like to see and something that we shall have to leave to fanfic for a while longer.

However, a major plus point of the opening of the first episode was that it finally got rid of a bigger gripe of mine! Season Two was, to me, very noticeable for the way it handled Gwen and Rhys, and Owen and Tosh, and then Jack and Ianto as a completely separate thing. Owen/Tosh and Gwen/Rhys got story arcs, Jack/Ianto got snapshots and innuendo. I think you can notice it most in episodes like 'From Out Of The Rain', where it's Ianto and Jack-centric and yet somehow manages not to be about their relationship, in comparison to 'Meat' or 'A Day In The Death', for example.

S2 was so hard to piece together -- they're going on a date, maybe! there are angsty make-outs! Ianto is maybe insecure because of Gwen! he's definitely sexing Jack up and helping her out behind his back at the same time! they're dancing at her wedding! what is going on?! Which is a huge amount of fun, but also frustrating when you're dealing with a canonical relationship.

Now, I've got something I can work with. It looks to me like ultimately nothing definite got decided by either of them until post 'Exit Wounds'. Something happened, then, between the end of S2 and 'The Stolen Earth' that's led to these notions of actually being in a relationship and possibly monogamy (see the 'soldier in a bar' exchange) and who knows what. It leaves just the right amount of wiggle room for fic writers to play in, but something has clearly changed that has caused Ianto to become all awkward around Jack, which I have decided is completely hilarious.

Oh, Ianto. His life is so hard when he has to deal with feelings! I laugh and I laugh. Okay, you know that totally weird hug they had after Jack got shot? That amused me so much because it was such a classic 'we've just decided we're official' move, whereby Ianto felt compelled to do something that goes against his nature, namely showing any affection whatsoever in front of other people, purely because they are now In A Relationship and thus Ianto must be demonstratively supportive. Nothing has actually changed between them, and yet suddenly everything is so uncomfortable! Or rather, Ianto is so uncomfortable. You could feel Jack's eyerolling through the screen. Ianto must long for the days when they were just having kinky clandestine sex and he didn't have to worry about any of this stuff. I think it's been pretty obvious to us, to the other characters, to everyone apart from Ianto, maybe, that they've been kind of in love with each other for a kind of a long time, it's just that now they've gone and actually talked about it everything's gone all weird. I think that it's both very funny and rather sweet. And I want to read and write fic about it like you wouldn't believe.

And finally, apparently I couldn't help myself: have a ficbit, which may be turned into a proper story depending on how this week goes.

jack/ianto snippet, sometime post-2x13

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"Okay, enough of this 'need to be needed' crap," Jack says. He grabs the coffee mugs out of Ianto's hands and sets them on the kitchen counter in Ianto's flat. "Stop looking after me, and start talking to me."

Ianto blinks. "And what do you want me to talk about?"

"I just --" Jack looks a bit stuck for words, which definitely isn't a good sign. "I want you to want something from me, but I can't figure out what it is."

Ianto shakes his head. "I don't want anything from you, Jack."

"Of course you do, and I'm asking." Jack steps forward and rests his hands on Ianto's hips, his gaze intense and very close. "What do you want, for yourself, selfishly and completely? What is this? What am I to you?"

Ianto opens his mouth to reply, but very little by way of sound comes out.

Jack sighs. "You know, I have really been trying here, and you've been giving me a seriously hard time. You don't want to talk about it, you don't want anyone to know about it, except when you do, and--" He shrugs. "I'm lost. So." He picks up a mug and makes for the other room, sounding exasperated. "In your own time, I wouldn't want to rush you or anything."

Ianto stares after his retreating back, gaping a little until Jack's disappeared from view.

Jack yells back, "Hey, starter for ten! How do you feel about my sleeping with other people? Furiously jealous, turned on, totally apathetic, what?"

"Lord have mercy," Ianto mutters, and swallows his coffee in one. It's going to take a hell of a lot more than that to get him through this conversation.

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On the other hand... but I am just saying that that is what I would like to see and something that we shall have to leave to fanfic for a while longer.

I agree with this entire paragraph. I've also been of the personal canon that Jack is not Ianto's first male relationship, just probably the most serious. But in the end its not a shock or a surprise that they don't want to get into the whole 'what is Ianto's sexuality, how is he labeled, how does this change things' too much. The focus of the should, in the end, should be the sci-fi aspect and the interpersonal relationships of the characters on the show is the cream on top. I would love to see more of the love without gender or need to label but most of the world doesn't see things that way so the fact that we have Jack is as good as we are going to get right now. (Wow, that ended up being longer than I meant!)

And yeah, lovely that they have finally cemented the Jack/Ianto as a real relationship and not just "shenanigans in the dark."

Ianto is so very cute with trying to deal with the feelings. I like to think that maybe it was a really gushy 'I love you' moment that made this all happen. I'm figuring that part of their story arc during these 5 episodes is for Ianto to get over his awkwardness of 'this is real and there are feelings involved' and for them to go forward. *happy bounce*

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And that fic is win, especially the "Lord have mercy" heheh!

"Hey, starter for ten! How do you feel about my sleeping with other people? Furiously jealous, turned on, totally apathetic, what?"

Yes! Just, yes. :)

I love this shape for that conversation between them.

I'm beginning to think, in accepting the way Ianto came out to his sister, that Jack is only Ianto's second long term serious relationship at all. If there wasn't anyone except perhaps a couple of short term girlfriends with whom he barely got past first base, before Lisa, then being with Jack is going to have forced Ianto to examine himself not just in terms of his sexuality, but in terms of intimacy with other people (sexual or not). Given the way Ianto was with Lisa, and way Jack seems to like to build people up and send them out into the world, Ianto quite possibly has no idea how to do any of it (regardless of gender). He would likely have had similar sorts of problems if he'd been a relationship with, say, Gwen, who expects to protect Rhys, but not to look after him (or be looked after by him). He probably thought: guy, immortal, therefore no commitment, awesome. Whereas Jack seems to deal with the fact that everyone he knows will die before him by loving them an extra lot.

I hope you can make sense of that.

If that is the arc they are doing and all ends well on Friday I will be a seriously happy camper, yes. :D

Jack's just throwing out some options here! *g*

Thanks, good to know! I am going to poke at it some more this week, I think.

And I really like your thoughts on this - yes, that, basically. Ianto is generally not very good at all of this!

Whereas Jack seems to deal with the fact that everyone he knows will die before him by loving them an extra lot.

OH JACK. *heartclutch!*

I actually liked Jack and Ianto as a behind the scenes arc, because it allowed us to fill in more ourselves. That's usually the kind of arc I like (because the writers are less likely to fuck it up!), c.f. Owen's season 1 arc, which was all piecemeal and hidden.

And I don't know what the hell to make of Jack and Ianto this season, because so far Ianto has had one frigging facial expression for 95% of his scenes, and I can't read him at all. I can't attach. I'm attaching to the others fine, but not him.

Yes, yes, yes, and please write that fic.

Ianto is so awkward it's funny, and Jack is confused it's funny. Because my personal canon says Jack wants more, way more, but can't figure out why Ianto won't give it. And maybe even, Jack isn't sure Ianto loves him, I can't tell. It's sweet, but also a little heartbreaking.

That's usually the kind of arc I like (because the writers are less likely to fuck it up!)

Yeah, I know what you mean, and I definitely like it like that from a fandom point of view - but then, it kind of frustrates me in canon! I don't know, I'm just not used to really caring all that much about canon relationships, and it adds that extra layer of complicated!

Also, ha, you are kind of right re. GDL's acting - it's sort of a variant of 'kicked puppy' most of the time, isn't it?

I'm beginning to think, in accepting the way Ianto came out to his sister, that Jack is only Ianto's second long term serious relationship at all.

Makes loads of sense. Because Ianto isn't that old relatively (mid twenties?)so if he was with Lisa whilst he was at Torchwood 1 and he went there straight after A levels or even straight after uni, it's kind of scary to say "Yeah. I'm now kind of seeing a guy."

I'll get on it! Ah, new canon, it's very inspiring. :D

And maybe even, Jack isn't sure Ianto loves him, I can't tell.

Oh, you know, I hadn't thought of it like that and that's really sad! Aw. I rather like that idea.

Probably easier though, then, "The love of my life was killed by an alien machine and I tried to rebuild her until she went on a killing rampage and now I'm sleeping with and maybe in a full on romantic relationship with a guy who can't be killed, who definitely won't die before me."

There's a really tragic dynamic in the first ep, where Jack first shrugs and goes, "we are a couple, so what?", and when Ianto continues, snaps and says, "I don't like that word." Ianto is essentially giving him the emotional cold shoulder, unless Jack's in mortal danger, and then he's willing to stay and die with Jack, which is copping out, too (imho because Ianto's more afraid of being alone than of dying -- that's a whole other meta, though). Jack's got to know this. For me, yesterday's most tragic moment was when Jack comes back from this horrifying experience of being locked up, coming back half-regenerated, and then being buried alive, again, and Ianto saves him (not that Jack knows that). Yet Jack comes back, squares his shoulders, and walks right past Ianto without so much as a hug. Because Ianto doesn't offer, and things are awkward between them. Yet Jack, who's so very tactile, has got to want/need that contact. If he knows Ianto loves him, wouldn't he just go for that hug?

(And I'm barfing all over your meta, sorry!)

Is that before or after he says "Oh by the way, I work for people who stops aliens from invading earth and did you know that Cardiff was like Watford Gap services on the M1 of intergalactic space travel"

Not at all - any time!

And I really want to rewatch the episode now with this in mind, because that makes lots of sense.

DEAR JACK AND IANTO: PLEASE HUG TONIGHT.

:(

I suspect that, because of the different format and the move to One, emo stuff will have to wait till about Thursday, so as not to scare off new viewers who come in expecting hot!action!drama. But tonight would be good.

And because I'm like that, not all of these thoughts are originally mine. Loads of other meta is percolating in my brain; it's just other people's ideas smashed together :).

something has clearly changed that has caused Ianto to become all awkward around Jack, which I have decided is completely hilarious.

bwahaha! this
also, your fic snippet! there needs to be MORE! please please keep going

Edited 2009-07-08 18:19 (UTC)

ooh, yeah, what you said

Someone had to say it...

I know, I know that the whole 'we're-not-gay-we-just-love-each-other' trope is overdone and so very unhelpful. However, I kind of need to raise a different flag, if only as someone who bore with the slightly dodgy early episodes of Torchwood because of the whole 'bi-sexuals-on-ma-tele' thing (I can forgive RTD for anything, cos Jack taught my parents that bisexual was a proper sexuality <3 <3). I heart Ianto's coming out scene with his sister because that's the great divisive issue of being bi; people label your sexuality by that of your partner. (If I'm involved with a lesbian then I'm a lesbian, if I'm involved with a straight bloke I'm straight; actually I'm just always bi) To constantly be defined by other people's definitions of you and not have a secure identity to fall back upon is that bit harder. A large part of their conversation is about him having shut Rhiannon out of his life, its more about their relationship than anything else. She's telling him he's changed, and he's trying to explain that he's still the same person that he's always been. I don't think he quite has the vocabulary to explain it to her, that its about the person not their gender. Cos coming out as bi for a lot of people involves a lot of educating people, even otherwise understanding people, out of seeing things in the binary of straight and gay.

Ianto doesn't really strike me as being someone who feels he fits under any of the conventional labels, but I think he kind of needs one at the moment even if he doesn't want one, you know?

And lets be honest being involved with an omnisexual 51st century bloke who's pushing 2000 years old (are we counting the years he was buried alive or have we decided he was dead for all the time he was buried alive) and a bit baffled by the whole gender/sexuality identities thing, isn't really going to help. We've got Jack canonically mocking the tendency to label things, coming from a time when people are rather more flexible, he's hardly going to be hugely helpful if Ianto's having some sort sexuality crisis because he wouldn't get what there was to have a crisis over. I can just see him being all 'I'm me, you're you, what's either of our genders got to do with anything other than what kind of genitalia we have to have sex with?'

*gestures frustratedly* Umm...sorry to rant...I'm sure I had a point to start with there but i suspect it got lost....

Edited to add: I totally forgot to comment on the cuteness of your fic titbit! Jack is totally eyerolling at Ianto all the damn time right now.

Edited 2009-07-08 18:42 (UTC)

Okay, I have WAY TOO MUCH FLAIL to be coherent right now, because I just watched Day One & Day Two in one go, AND OH MY GOD TEAM WHAT I LOVE YOU, but just yes, yes, YES to everything you said, and AMY!FIC is ALWAYS SOMETHING I NEED.

♥♥♥♥♥

Owen/Tosh and Gwen/Rhys got story arcs, Jack/Ianto got snapshots and innuendo.

YES!! that is one thing that for me is immensely satisfying in this series. i suspect that there will be a big "come to jesus" moment between them by the end where they declare their feelings for one another, but actually loving the awkwardness they both have right now.

God! How is it even possible I keep messing up these tags so much? I obviously fail at life. I'm sorry for spamming, Amy!

(Okay- I'm writing this while CoE3 is airing and I'm not yet watching, so this ep could be contradicting my theory even more.)

Am I totally misinterpreting the whole Jack/Ianto-dynamic in CoE? Because, the way I see it, Jack's the one pulling back, not Ianto.

It's like Ianto keeps asking him to label their relationship because he doesn't know what's going on between them anymore, and Jack's just happy to let them be whatever they are, quaint little categories not necessary.

Ianto's obviously head over heels, crazy-in-love for Jack. He tried locking himself into the Hub because he couldn't face Jack not surviving the bomb ("there'll be nothing left of you!"), the way he put his life on the line by going back to the site of the bombing just so he could see what had happened to Jack, the tears in his eyes when he saw what they were doing to him with the concrete, the hesitation when dropping him over the quarry, the smile when he saw Jack again... And how remarkable is it that Gwen's priority at this moment is figuring out what's going on with the kids and with the people trying to kill them, when Ianto's focussing completely on getting Jack back to him?

I have to agree with

verasteine, my heart broke when Jack just walked past Ianto without a hug.

I don't know exactly why Jack's acting the way he is. To me, he's just not wanting to peg this thing down, I guess, and perhaps he's afraid of getting so very attached to someone again this quickly after Owen and Tosh's deaths?

Now, I'm not so sure about my view on this anymore. Sadly. I kinda liked it.

Also, I forgot to add this in my original (deleted) comment: I really like the snippet. It's so very Jack, even if I'm totally debunking my own theory by saying that...

Loved the ficlet. Jack's definitely the sort to push when Ianto is trying hard not to run and scream.

In one of the books (The Twilight Streets), there's an exchange with Gwen about Ianto's sexuality, but he plays the cards pretty close to his chest in a "No, you don't really understand me or my motives, no one has, so leave it" kind of way.

Seeing his family, that makes a lot of sense now. He's not really close with them in a lot of ways, looks like, and it sounds like he bolted in part because he couldn't deal with his own shit and individuate in an environment like that.

So far, Children of Earth is making some of his personality a bit clearer for me. He's still growing up, I think -- missed some developmental steps, possibly? -- and might have problems with acceptance. (Warning: strong possibility that I am projecting here, at least a bit.) I think he wants some of the normal things, deep down, and Jack pooh-poohs them out of hand.

This is going to be an experience...

Word.

Also, love the snippet!

I still haven't felt motivated enough to watch COE, but I think it's interesting that Jack is Ianto's first step out of heterosexuality. It's like the opposite of RTD's series Bob and Rose.

Well, I also like all romantic elements to be secondary to action/plot. I'm not watching the show for the smut, I'm watching it for the arsekicking.

i love your brain and the thinky thoughts that come from it. ♥ i agree with mostly all of what you said, and i want to add my little two cents in that i think Jack is also being weird and awkward with their newly-minted couple[-ish] status. the thing is, Jack is FAR more smooth about it than poor, poor Ianto. either way, i'm enjoying CoE so much so far. so YAY.

also? eee SNIPPET. \o/ i would not at all mind if that should happen to turn into an entire fic.

Ah, and then we get into that whole 'what show are you watching' thing! I pretty much always watch things for characters/themes/relationships, with plot as an added bonus.

Hee, so glad you agree! And next week I think it is high time I wrote some Torchwood again, yes. :D

You're totally right, actually - I like that way of thinking about it! And it leaves me with what is apparently my mantra of the week: oh, poor Ianto.

Haha, oh you! *twirls you*

I am totally, totally down with the sap, and I'm not even embarrassed. *g*

I think that there are a lot of crossed wires here. I think that Jack isn't very good at actually using words to express how he feels and just assumes that everyone knows already, and I've been reading it as that he doesn't understand why Ianto's uptight about certain things, and misreads it as hesitance about Jack rather than a need for reassurance.

The lack of hugging there is... I don't know. There could be lots of reasons for that. I think that episode three did kind of shed some new light on this, but looks like we're going to have to wait for the whole story to play out!

Thanks! Being involved with Jack Harkness just seems to bring a whole world of trouble.

So far, Children of Earth is making some of his personality a bit clearer for me.

*nod* Definitely - it looks like Ianto's whole attitude is covering up for all sorts of stuff, which seems to make it very hard both for him to deal with changes and for other people to actually understand what's going on underneath. *pets him*

\o/ Thanks! And aww, your icon. :D

That was my thought too, although I haven't actually seen Bob and Rose. I should get on that sometime!

the thing is, Jack is FAR more smooth about it than poor, poor Ianto.

Hahaha, actually - this! Oh man. I love it. :D

♥! I think I have some writing to do.

It totally varies for me, and sometimes I'm watching it for everything, and sometimes it depends on the viewing what I'm watching it for.

But, uh, I'm not invested enough in any of these characters to be watching for those things, so it's action/plot/background details this time through.

YAY!

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okay, thinky thoughts ahoy!

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You people and your quaint little categories...

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Re: You people and your quaint little categories...

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