help, help, I'm being erased!

[such_heights]

*facepalm* Okay, look. I am both queer and female, and you know what's not okay? Implying that one of those things is more important than the other and should more strongly dictate my reading and writing habits.

Intersectionality: it's a thing.

Also, can we stop phrasing this whole mess in terms of a gender binary? There are a lot of gender identities represented within fandom, and plenty of them are being erased right now. Stop it, fandom!

In the great sprawling land that is the internet, it makes no sense to say 'there should be more x!' and mean 'there should be less y!'. There is, in fact, room enough for everything. I think there should be more femslash, I think there should be more genfic about female friendships, I think there should be more women-centric vids. That doesn't mean I think there should be less of anything else, because I am not a fan of lecturing a majority-female community about what they can or can't do.

Besides, I don't want there to be less slash anyway - it's about people like me, it's relevant to my interests! (Which is not to say every queer person connects with guyslash in that way.) No type of fanwork is the distinct product of a particular group, and as such you can't dismiss anything as having less value in terms of identity politics - 'straight women write slash and are anti-feminist!' etc. Um, no.

I tell you what there should be less of, though: misogyny and character-bashing and double standards! That's the stuff that makes fandom feel hostile to female characters sometimes, and you see it in guyslash and het and gen and poly and even, depressingly, in femslash. (I read a femslash story this one time that didn't even pass the Bechdel test, it was tragic.) And I think it's overly simplistic to talk about fandom just in terms of fanworks, when people's meta and squee and discussion has just as much impact on the overall environment. LJ/DW/IJ fandom is more than a fic archive!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll get back to the Kahlan/Cara fic I've got open in tabs, whilst listening to the song I'm about to vid Merlin/Arthur to. I never before though that would make me feel ~edgy~.

Comments

[shewhohashope]

First of all, I'm going to need a link to that story. And... that's it really. I need my LOTS fix!

[such_heights]

Hee! Well, I have not read very much of it yet, but here it is.

[emei]

In short: YES, intersectionality is most definitely a thing. I wish people would stop trying to force every question into binary terms.

misogyny and character-bashing and double standards! That's the stuff that makes fandom feel hostile to female characters sometimes
Yeah. I've been looking at Torchwood stuff recently and oh the character-bashing in places hurts, but I'd never say that writing less slash would make it better. I want my queer stories.

And now I think I'll go write multi-shippy Merlin fic instead.

[such_heights]

Ugh, yes, the anti-Gwen sentiment in certain parts of TW fandom is pretty foul.

And now I think I'll go write multi-shippy Merlin fic instead.

I APPROVE. :D

[glass_icarus]

OHAI, ILU. &hearts :D

[such_heights]

♥!

[woldy]

Yes times a million, to all of this. <3

[such_heights]

*solidarity fistbump* :D

[51stcenturyfox]

Oh god, I wrote a "there should be moar womens in fic and if not that's okay but some excuses for this are rubbish" thing and now I'm paranoid that it rubbed people the wrong way...

[such_heights]

Well, it certainly didn't rub me up the wrong way! I thought that post was awesome and spot-on, and I appreciated you calling out some of the bullshit that gets passed around. (Hint: if people disagreed with that post, THEY'RE WRONG. :D)

[xsomethingbluex]

*facepalm* Okay, look. I am both queer and female, and you know what's not okay? Implying that one of those things is more important than the other and should more strongly dictate my reading and writing habits.

*nods* don't you just want to smash those stupid boxes into bits?

In the great sprawling land that is the internet, it makes no sense to say 'there should be more x!' and mean 'there should be less y!'. There is, in fact, room enough for everything.
Ah the down side of fandom... There definately needs to be more *good* femslash around - and although fandom shall surely disown me for saying so - there should be more het too. I love fandom but it can get so polarized :(

I adore squee/meta/discussion mainly because you always get something new from it and it always amazes me how much more attention the fans pay to the work than the actual writers (most of the time).

I'll get back to the Kahlan/Cara fic I've got open in tabs
Where? Oh Where..? I need to find LotS fic :P Know of any Richard/Cara fic floating around? I can't help but love them.

[such_heights]

I have not read much LotS yet, but the Kahlan/Cara story was Not Unlike A Woman by scurvyknavery and it was pretty awesome. :D

[chaila]

Heh, I just wrote a "there should be more gen fic" post and now I'm paranoid too. Oops! Though I do think it just sounds bad because saying I wish there was "more" of something is just...relative. It wouldn't make me happy if there were simply less ship fic, I just wish for more gen alongside. And I really appreciate your point about fanworks because you're totally right, the discussion is a huge part of fandom and should count too (and usually, I find, for the better).

[such_heights]

I just wish for more gen alongside

Which is totally fair! What was getting me hacked off was not so much 'I wish there was more of something', but rather an assertion that some things are just inherently, objectively better/more feminist or whatever, without taking into account that all of these categories can be progressive if they're done right.

[glinda]

In the great sprawling land that is the internet, it makes no sense to say 'there should be more x!' and mean 'there should be less y!'. There is, in fact, room enough for everything.

This. I just had a rant at my mother about the unhelpfulness of boxes and the fluidity of gender (poor soul, she's very sympathetic but clearly baffled by these things) that was clearly my left over rage at all the erasure this whole debate seems to be enacting.

[such_heights]

*clings* Although, haha, I also have bemused parents, the poor things.

[amathela]

I read a femslash story this one time that didn't even pass the Bechdel test, it was tragic.

How ... is that even possible? Like, how do you even write something like that?

WOW, ANYWAY: Cara/Kahlan, yay!!!

[such_heights]

I know, right? It was a HP story where the two girls were fighting over a boy, and thus the entire make-out sequence was about him. It was -- interesting.

CARA/KAHLAN=OTP OMG. *_* I mean, yes. I concur. *g*

[kel_reiley]

i wish there was more male-female friendships in both fandom and on television :(
but yes, more of everything, less of the bashing and badwank
and i am really craving good gen fic! like, i don't mind if there is shippy stuff in the background, but more gen with ALL the characters playing a part, y'know?

[such_heights]

Yes, that too! I love TV set-ups where the leads don't actually have UST/get together at the end.

And team fic! Yes! I also crave that, always.

[verasteine]

Yes, yes, yes, to all of that, and I wish I had the time to think about this and formulate a proper response. Instead, I have a train to catch, but I might pop back in tonight and think it over proper. But, yes!

[such_heights]

Hurrah! As always, I am interested in your thinky thoughts should you have the time.

[snegurochka_lee]

YES to all of this. Thank you for saying it so articulately.

you see it in guyslash and het and gen and poly and even, depressingly, in femslash. (I read a femslash story this one time that didn't even pass the Bechdel test, it was tragic.)

THIS. Me too. Good grief. It's not just slash that has misogyny issues, so yeah, I think I know what particular post you're responding to, and it missed the mark by about a zillion miles. :/

[such_heights]

I think talking about fandom's issues by laying them at the doorstep of particular subsections really just ends up devaluing some really valid points, which is a big shame. Sigh!

[fallingtowers]

I must admit that I'm one of the women in fandom who's always been rather skeptical about the (m/m) slash phenomenon, and partly so from my feminist perspective. (And partly through my exposure to a RL friend whom I like a lot, but who could be categorized as an old skool slasher with all its hangups, internalized sexism included.)

I'm trying to get the hang of that intersectionality thing, though, and try to consider to reconcile my stance with a queer perspective. However, I think this post does quite a good job at summarizing a few of the more problematic claims with regard to slash fandom without dismissing queerness in fic.

[such_heights]

OMG YOUR ICON. *dies*

I absolutely agree with that post that slash doesn't belong on a pedestal, and I get very frustrated with those kinds of attitudes. In fact, I think there are a lot of things in fan culture that deserve critique, and some of those things show up most prominently, though not exclusively, in slash fandom. I understand why that puts people off, and I think it's worth talking about. It's when the debate crossed over from 'there are (perhaps many) problematic elements in slash fandom to do with women' to 'slash is inherently problematic and should be avoided if you want to be a good feminist' that I got irritated.

[heathershaped]

This whole debate is starting to hurt.

Anyway yes, what you said. Intersectionality is everything.

[such_heights]

♥ But, eee, Annie/Nina icon! :D

[linkspam_mod]

Your post has been included in a Linkspam roundup.

[affablyevil]

Thing the first: word to everything you just said.

Thing the second: Kahlan/Cara fic yesss!

[such_heights]

I am so glad it's taking off as a ship, yay!

[sunnyrea.livejournal.com]

I tell you what there should be less of, though: misogyny and character-bashing and double standards!

And this is my hope for the fandom world. I cling to it like a raft.

[such_heights]

I think that maybe we're getting closer. I hope we are, anyway.

here via metafandom's delicious

[schmevil]

This is a great post and I have much love for it.

I tell you what there should be less of, though: misogyny and character-bashing and double standards! That's the stuff that makes fandom feel hostile to female characters sometimes, and you see it in guyslash and het and gen and poly and even, depressingly, in femslash. (I read a femslash story this one time that didn't even pass the Bechdel test, it was tragic.)

I read and write a bit of everything, and I've seen misogyny at work in all corners of fandom. It does seem to hit harder when I find it in femslash though. *sigh* This is why things like Half A Moon and Heroines Fest are imho so important.

And I think it's overly simplistic to talk about fandom just in terms of fanworks, when people's meta and squee and discussion has just as much impact on the overall environment. LJ/DW/IJ fandom is more than a fic archive!

This is a really great point!

Re: here via metafandom's delicious

[such_heights]

Thanks! Yes, absolutely, I have huge love for the people who make comms like halfamoon and femgenficathon and do all this work to promote women, it's really awesome.

[azurejay]

Also, can we stop phrasing this whole mess in terms of a gender binary? There are a lot of gender identities represented within fandom, and plenty of them are being erased right now. Stop it, fandom!

Parachuting in via metafandom to say THX FOR THAT!!!

(Also, for the general common sensibility of your post. Awesomesauce.)

[such_heights]

Oh geez - you are welcome, but I'm so annoyed it needs saying! GET WITH THE TIMES, FANDOM.

here via metafandom

[trobadora]

In the great sprawling land that is the internet, it makes no sense to say 'there should be more x!' and mean 'there should be less y!'. There is, in fact, room enough for everything.

Thank you for saying this. It's not a zero-sum game! You don't have to fight other people for limited resources.

(Also, Cara is made of awesome, and there needs to be more Kahlan/Cara.)

Re: here via metafandom

[such_heights]

Right, exactly! It's a trap people fall into all the time, and it's frustrating.

I was about to leave some kind of reasoned reply agreeing with Cara's awesome, but my brain just goes CARAAAAAAAAAAA ILU, so. >.>

[sprat]

In the great sprawling land that is the internet, it makes no sense to say 'there should be more x!' and mean 'there should be less y!'.

YES. Thank you! This is exactly what I wanted to say about this and couldn't manage to spit out. :D

[such_heights]

Excellent, I'm glad the articulation was helpful! :)

[eggcrack]

This:

In the great sprawling land that is the internet, it makes no sense to say 'there should be more x!' and mean 'there should be less y!'. There is, in fact, room enough for everything.

And this:

I tell you what there should be less of, though: misogyny and character-bashing and double standards!

Made of awesome and truth. ♥♥♥♥

[such_heights]

Thanks a lot!

[melusinahp]

I love this. You hit the nail right on the head.

[such_heights]

I'm glad it makes sense to you, thank you.

[lamardeuse]

Thank you for this.

[such_heights]

You are most welcome! Also, omg. That icon is amazing. \o/