she's got her spaceship, her boys, a metric ton of awesome

[such_heights]

The female character-bashing that seems to be brewing up in Who fandom right now is making me a really sad panda. Fandom, cut it out! Why do you always do this? You and I would get along so much better if you could just find it in yourselves to hate women a little less.

I find a lot of it baffling - sometimes, characters get shot down for characteristics that I think are awesome and other people think are worthy of total scorn. Other times, I am confused as to what show people are even watching. So, someone ranting about River Song and what a smug bitch she is is infuriating, but at least I understand where that comes from. (They say smug bitch, I say kickass, compulsive viewing, and hot like burning - tomayto, tomahto.)

But some of the criticisms being levied at Amy outright confuse me. In what way is she not a 'proper' companion? What do you mean, she has no good qualities whatsoever? What show are you watching? Did you miss the part where she loves travelling the universe, loves the Doctor, and is smart and brave and a brilliant improviser? Plus, she sees the whole of time and space with such childlike, starry-eyed wonder that it makes me a little verklempt. (Fun fact: the end of the Eleventh Hour makes me cry every bloody time I watch it. ♥)

It's one thing not to like a character - after all, if feminism is focused on the idea that hey, women are people too, then of course part of that is not liking all of them, that would be ridiculous. But a lot of the stuff going around fandom right now is Not Cool.

Some reading, from people who say things better!

eta: spoilers for 5x09 in all three, I think!

jaythenerdkid: That Doesn't Mean What You Think it Means: a Doctor Who Feminism Rant

lizbee: Your intermittent dose of stupid

calapine: Women of the Whoniverse

One thing (amongst admittedly, Quite A Lot) that I'm loving about season five of New Who is the number and variety of older female characters. In nine episodes they've managed to drop the horrid stereotype of the Nagging Mother and Sexuality In Older Women Is Just For Laughs, and given us five very different characters who're female and over forty: three are people of colour, one (probably) died, one is a villain, two are flawed people trying to do better, one has her version of The Companion Story in two episodes, three clearly express their sexuality without being mocked for it and four are, for me, pretty damn awesome, and here is why:

Comments

[shopfront]

*thumbs up* Just to check, do you mind this being linked?

[such_heights]

Not at all!

[pocketmouse]

I'm just so glad that I'm not even seeing anything like this on my flist, and only even occasionally on friendsfriends.

[such_heights]

Oh yeah, it's not on my flist, though members of my flist have been ranting about it, which draws it to my attention. I should learn not to click!

[heathershaped]

FORTUNATELY, the only place I see this type of bullshit is at the doctorwho comm, which is easy (and advisable) to avoid. If I ever saw it on my flist I'd go on a defriending rampage. And I say that as someone who is not as in love with the second half of this season as I was with the first.

[such_heights]

All of my flist have been great! They just link me to rage-inducing things, which I should probably learn to steer clear of.

[sunnyrea.livejournal.com]

And this is the reason why I stay out of most Who fandom discussion except with my friends. People are dumb. Amy and River are both awesome and I have loved seeing the older women on the show! I mean, doesn't anyone else get tired of the 19 year olds? Plus, seriously, what is wrong with Amy? Fucking love her and I want to be the one to marry River!

[such_heights]

I want to be the one to marry River

... not if I get there first! (Oh hey, we can totally share. :D)

[sunnyrea.livejournal.com]

It's a win win!

[glass_icarus]

&hearts

[such_heights]

*clings*

[copracat]

What you said.

[such_heights]

*sigh*

[topaz_eyes]

Do you mind an opposing opinion?

I don't like Amy as a character. I feel like I'm being told she's awesome and special, and I should accept it. She does all these things, yes. But--I'm not getting that deeper sense that she cares. I don't see that starry-eyed wonder you do, I see someone strangely unaffected. I don't know whether that's the writing or the portrayal. (I don't think Karen Gillan is a good actor. Is that bashing?)

Then there's the writing. Amy's general lack of empathy for others, "I'm not clingy/don't be clingy" comments, her behavior during the negotiations in "Cold Blood," or the way she treats Rory--we're told she loves him, yet IMHO she doesn't show it convincingly (unless he's dead she seems to take him for granted). So is that all bashing, or anti-feminist, that I think this outweighs her positive characteristics? What it comes down to is, I need to know a character, and I don't know her. I haven't felt Amy's changed at all, the way Rose or Martha or Donna already had by this point in their arcs.

In comparison I've enjoyed every other female character in Moffat's Who. They feel more complete and real to me than Amy ever has. I was wishing Nasreen could be the companion. So was my 13-yo daughter. Of all people, my daughter should be identifying with Amy, and she doesn't. So--I don't know. What am I missing?

[snorkackcatcher]

Amy's general lack of empathy for others

Sorry to butt in, but I couldn't really see where this was coming from? I'd say we see her empathising on a fairly regular basis, it's quite a feature -- e.g. much of TBB (forgetting so as to save the Doctor from an impossible choice, good with the kids, understanding the space whale), talking round the android!boffin in VotD, urging the Doctor to leave her to save the others in TToA, trying to save the clerics from the crack in space in FaS, the finish of AC, encouraging the father in CB, and that's just off the top of my head.

(With the negotiations bit I just read her as overwhelmed by the craziness of the Doctor having appointed her co-negotiator for the entire human race, but she did come through when needed.)

[topaz_eyes]

Sorry to butt in, but I couldn't really see where this was coming from? I'd say we see her empathising on a fairly regular basis

Sorry, I wasn't being precise there. I should have said that to me, Amy does not come across as an empathetic character. In those scenes you mention, I don't feel her coming across as empathetic, instead she feels wooden and flat. The writers are telling us yeah, she's empathetic, but the actor's not showing me convincingly. Which is all a matter of interpretation in the end.

[dani_the_girl]

I totally sympathised with her in that meeting - I've been in meetings like that. (Well, not quite like that, obviously, but you know what I mean).

[magic_at_mungos]

Personally I don't think you're bashing. You have an opinion and you've put it across in a sane way with perfectly good reasons for it. Sometimes a person just doesn't *get* a character. (For example, despite a lot of love for her on my flist, I just don't get Rose. I hate the way she treated Mickey but apart from that, I'm just meh about her and can see how she's meant to be this epic love interest).

[such_heights]

What am I missing?

I don't know! I mean, obviously you're not watching the show in the same way that I am, and that happens sometimes. I agree with what snorkackcatcher says below, and I do see her actions very differently from you do. I also really enjoy Karen's performance. I don't think disagreeing with me is bashing! I'm just dismayed at all the virulent hatred and insistence on tearing her down really viciously, which of course isn't what you're doing at all.

Amy's the first companion I've really identified with (as opposed to just loved as a character, the way I have done with Rose, Martha, Donna and the rest).

[biodamped]

Linked here by way of a friend, and i have to say, i'm kind of getting a "what am i missing?" vibe too. I All my friends adore this season, but i'm sitting there watching half-heartedly, and wishing for Season 4. As far as character goes, i really don't think i "get" Amy - and this for the reasons that you state, topaz_eyes: i feel like i'm veing told, rather than shown. I don't find Karen's acting believable at all, not the way i found Catherine's. It doesn't help that she was the companion i most related to, or that i feel like Amy the character is a younger, prettier version of her, kind of like Moffat has taken Russell's Donna and remade her in his own way.

I must say though, the hate is new to me. :/ I've seen nothing but love for Amy, which led me to believe i was a lone wolf here. I do know where you're coming from, though, because the places i frequented in the days of Donna's arrival had much the same opinion of her as what you're describing up there. I've since decided to stay away from all main-stream Who comms. They're scary places sometimes.

(For the record, i didn't really care for Rose in Tennant's era, for the same reasons: i found her responses to be a bit OTT and love-for-the-sake-of. She was much better with Nine, the dynamic was totally different. And i've never liked River Song, but Sally Sparrow was wonderful, and i would have loved to see what they'd done with her as a full time companion. Again, i think it comes back to the acting, because Carey made Sally real for me in a way that Karen isn't making Amy.)

[crooked]

ugh. this is why i tend to stay WAY on the periphery of most fandoms i'm in. the discussion comms tend to breed a lot of this bullshit, and i just don't have time for that. i love my little cocoon of an flist, where only awesome happens!

and haters to the left, dammit. amy pond is brilliant, and she rocks the hell out of her ~scandalously~ short skirts. \o/

[such_heights]

Damn right she does! I love her so much omg.

[kel_reiley]

BUT AMY IS SO SO AWESOME!!!

[such_heights]

I know, right? I am just glad I am not alone in appreciating this.

[kel_reiley]

good grief that icon is ADORABLE!

[snorkackcatcher]

There are people who don't like Amy? Who are these people and which inadvisable substances are they smoking?

[such_heights]

Haha, I'm not sure. I mean, I can understand not gelling with a character for whatever reason (although in this case, non-fans are missing out!), but some of the loathing is entirely bizarre.

[saint_claws]

Disregard! After following your links I now see that of course you have read it. :P

[such_heights]

Haha, no problem!

[simply]

Just randomly stumbled here :).

I'm loving this new season! I love Eleven, I love Rory, and I love Amy. The only thing I don't like has more to do with salesmanship than anything else but I wonder why the costume department always has to dress Amy in such skimpy skirts and shorts. She is far more than just her lovely long legs, surely? I think this kind of thing means people are reliant on appearances rather than character, and this excellent show doesn't need to flash leg to draw viewers in.

[dani_the_girl]

What? People don't like Amy? I was dubious about her to begin with but she has totally won me over and is the bestest companion in the world in space. She's so *active*! She doesn't just wait, she picks pockets, saves herself and goes exploring. She's sassy! In a good way! Anyway, you know all that. I guess it's a good thing I haven't had time for the Dr Who comms this series.